Smutný koniec delostreleckej techniky.....

Just for curiosity - last time we saw the sad end of the MiG-21, here is the sad end of the artillery...


www.detektorweb.cz



Whenď I look at those photos, it makes me want to cryť.

Aspon ze chlapci si uzili zabavu. Posledne foto bolo skoro akcne. Ako som pozeral, tak sa hlavne rezali tvarovanymi vybusninami.

Barbarstvo.
Niektoré múzeá a zberatelia by si dali vŕtať nielen koleno za čo i len jeden kus 2S7 alebo 240mm minometu. Aj 152mm húfnice a 100mm kanóny by sa dali výhodne vymeniť.

JEDNÍM SLOVEM PRASEČINA !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm afraid your ideas about "bargain exchanges" are way off. In real life, swapping is quite a complex and expensive problem often ending in a dead end. Moreover, even if you get interested buyers (which for Soviet equipment is quite a lot not easy) there is the problem of transport, and other things (like the fact that according to disarmament treaties the item in question has to be devalued and the way it is devalued usually prevents it from being used as an exhibit). so the idea of how the items in question are "bargain exchanged" is more childishly naive than realistic. Similarly, the idea that one-offs are "destroyed" is not true either, of course a few pieces are preserved for museum purposes and the rest have to be disposed of according to contracts. So the fact that this method was chosen is just a realistic way of saving money. Lots of other similar systems have been disposed of by, for example, cutting out part of the barrel and selling it to the smelters (which you don't care about) the fact that they do it here as part of training is more of a saving. By the same logic, every old car put into collection is also unique and "could be replaced" (there are more car collectors than militaries )
Simply, the army is getting rid of surplus material for which there is no use (decorating playgrounds and parks with such things has thankfully ended), it is not a reason for emotion or what-if considerations.

No na mě to emotivně působí docela dost .
Třeba ten atomovej kanon pokud vím tak třeba v USA je jen jeden exemplář za kterej sběratel bez mrknutí oka zaplatil milion dolarů ( ten kanon v USA má rozlišovací znaky ČSLA !!! ) .


Takže jak už jsem řekl je to prasárna

to pistolník než začneš psát nesmysly (jako kanon za milion) zkus nejdřív chvilku myslet.
1. obdobné kanony měla celá VS, není to tedy nic vzácného
2. o vývozu existují docela jasné zákony
3. o dovozu taky (i v USA)
takže kdyby dotyčný "sběratel" opravdu o něj stál už by ho dávno měl. A pokud je meloun celková částka tak si spočti kolik stojí doprava a na vlastní nepohyblivou techniku (nepohyblivá je kvůli smlouvám o odzbrojení) ti zbyde prd.
Vždy mne pobaví když někdo kdo o tom nic netuší začne vytvářet teorie aniž by si zjistil aspoň nejzákladnější údaje (stačí že si přečte o "sběrateli který zaplatí milion)
Klidně si "emotivně" ukápni slzu, ale bohužel tahle akce byla mnohem reálnější než "prodej".

Trochu OT :
S technikou je to strašně složité. Pokud vím byl i s převozem vraku hetzera z cvičáku někde ve Švýcarsku do ČR strašný problém. Ono totiž i tento vrak byl údajně stále brán jako vojenský materiál a veden jako tank,...Když se tedy vše papírově vyřídilo byl stroji (i přesto že byl z jedné strany prostřílený - cvičný cíl) do korby vypálen autogenem čtverec 30x30cm ...Naštěstí už se jej povedlo kompletně vyvařit,..
Naprosto stejná je situace s kanonem kdy tento vrak má kanon StuK,...majitel rekonstruovaného stroje by chtěl vyměnit za Pak, aby to připomínalo Hetzer,.....bohužel to údajně nejde,...


Pokud se chcete detailně podívat jak trhání kanonů proběhlo tak v linku je galerie : www.dolin.estranky.cz

to dolin, podle mezinárodních smluv je to opravdu tak, pokud to nemá být vedeno jako zbraň musí to bát znehodnoceno dle jasného předpisu, ten krom jiného praví že v korbě a věži musí být vyříznuty otvory o daném rozměru (je to myslím 20x20cm) dále v hlavní zbrani musí být vyříznut otvor (opět má daný rozměr, závěrř zbraně musí být upraven aby nešlo zbraň používat, mimoto řada dalších věcí. Je to pozůstatek mírových smluv které měly zabránit možnosti rychlého uschopnění "vyřazené" techniky. Takhle třeba přišel do republiky i Sherman (a ten se leta válel kdesi v německu na střelnici a byl plný písku) Právě to že tohle je docela přesně dáno (týká se to veškeré výzbroje, tanky jsem uvedl jako příklad) tak mne štvou různí tlachalové kteří mají "skvělý nápad" jak to vyměnit kamsi do zahraničí. Zdaleka to není jednoduché a už vůbec ne levné. stačí si spočíst kilometry a hodiny jeřábu (naložení), totéž u podvalníku a tahače. Pokud to má jít přes moře ještě loď nebo letadlo. Pak se ukáže že to není jako koupis si škodovku od souseda a že "výhodný kšeft" je často mimo finanční možnosti muzea nebo soukromníka. Dojde k tomu že vyměníte raritu za něco celkem běžného a rozdíl cen zaplatí dopravu, načež vás vykopnou že jste okradl muzeum, nebo začnete shánět peníze na dopravu a jste za blba protože výměna jesště není dohodlá (nemůže být když nevíte jestli to dokážete odvést). Takže žvásty o škodě na věcech které v muzeu jsou (i v depozitu kam většina z vás nevidí) mne opravdu štvou. Proč někdo ze žvanilů neveme prachy, věc od armády nekoupí (je to laciné za cenu šrotu) následně nevymění (s imaginárním sběratelem co dá milion) a nezbohatne? Pár lidí co hned po plyšáku koupilo staré hakly na tom neprodělalo (povedlo se je prodat na západ) ale představa jak tam čekají na naše "unikáty" je mylná. trh je nasycen a místní předpisy jsou docela tvrdé (známý vezl do německa znehodnocený kanon (ZiS-2) a němec měl husí kůži jak pralinky, že to se u nich nesmí a kanon se vrátil zpět (u nás je jako šrot). Protože o věci něco málo vím dost mne irituje že někdo kdo si nezjistí ani jak by to mohlo jít přes hranici (celní předpisy) nesmyslně žvaní o tom "co by se mohlo"

Re: Bitaxe


Cituji :" to pistolník než začneš psát nesmysly (jako kanon za milion) zkus nejdřív chvilku myslet.
1. obdobné kanony měla celá VS, není to tedy nic vzácného


Hmm takže to kapku upřesním .
On se totiž ten kanon nedávno dostal až na TV stanici Discavery kde o něm byl šot dlouhej skoro 20 minut .
Takže za 1.) kanon byl funkční
za2.) byl plně pojízdný ( v šotu jezdil celou dobu )
za3.) měl po obouch stranách rozlišovací znaky ČSLA
za 4.) pro toho maníka prachy nebyly fakt problém protože měl ve sbírce přez 30 tanků včetně abramse . Neptejte se mě jak to udělal prostě tam byl taky .
za5.) rusáci neměli zase tolik kanónů které mohli vystřelovat jadernou munici
za 6 .) tento kanon je pouze jeden na celé západní polokouli

to gunslinger, unlike you (apparently) I gather facts first and think later. If you consider a spot on discovery to be a source of information it's nice, but somewhat misleading. What you describe is evidence of only one thing, namely that journalists are the same everywhere. Even in the US with their rather benevolent laws you CANNOT keep a similar weapon in working condition, it has nothing to do with money, it is simply a law that prohibits the possession of many types of weapons including for example submachine guns (you are only allowed to have semi-automatic versions) and of course weapons of larger caliber and effect. So the idea of building a "nuke" cannon in your home is out of the question (especially if you were bragging about it on TV. Where the cannon in question came from was apparently not mentioned in the "documentary" (I assume you would brag about it). It is much more likely that he bought it after, say, US Army trials (loot weapons are tested everywhere and the famous museum in Aberdeen was actually created that way), but even if he had bought it here he would probably hardly buy another one (and again what I wrote applies, If he wanted it he could have had it already) The fact that it's "fully mobile" is normal, even the salvage or even normal tanks and transporters sold by the army were mobile, I don't really see what you're proving. The fact that it had CSLA insignia on both(s) sides may suggest that it was originally from us, but again it just confirms that whoever wanted it bought it and if it's not worth the money and hassle of transport to others, I guess there's nothing to be done, their business. Same goes for the next point, just because the person in question is rich (no matter how) doesn't mean he'll buy a dozen similar things from us (even if shipping would cost him cheaper) again it's your fallacy in argument, he already has the item in question, he probably doesn't want another one, so that means there is one individual with money who bought it, doesn't mean anything about being able to sell it to anyone else (besides the laws are changing and getting stricter, so what went in say 1992 is no longer available in many places) The Russians, or rather the VS troops had hundreds of these cannons and nuclear ammunition can be fired by any weapon above a certain caliber (even in the US) . The fact that "this cannon is only one in the whole Western Hemisphere" is again an argument of those when you first write and then do what I invite you to do (i.e. think) it is possible (but the Western Hemisphere is not only the USA but also other countries (maybe even the easternmost part of Russia) and the idea that if someone in the US does not have it it is lost is to say the least false, probably the US Army has procured some for testing (if it is not the one from the documentary. Might as well be in Woolwich, England (they have a cool hoard ).
And despite all the emotion and journalistic documents about collectors, there are laws and rules (even international ones) on the export and import of military equipment, and quite normal economics which somehow you still don't understand. So if we ignore the laws (we just chewed through the rules in question) There are basically two ways to get the item in question, the first is an exchange between museum institutions, i.e. for example the VHI asks the owner (i.e. the army) for the item in question and gets it, whereupon they exchange it for another exhibit, there are a number of restrictions on the Czech Republic and on the other side, for a private person it is uninteresting and impassable, unless he has something to exchange, moreover the museum has money problems which spoils it, the exhibit itself is "free" but transport and other fees must be paid. The other option is that the army which cannot trade itself offers through some established unit the item in question for sale, if it is a shirt you or I can buy it, if it is an item that could be judged from the point of view of contracts as a "weapons system" it is offered to a company with a license to trade in weapons, if there is no interest it is devalued in terms of contracts (which costs a lot of money) and offered for sale again (at a much lower price) usually ends up in the smelters, but of course you can also buy the equipment you are interested in (the chassis are usually mobile and the weapons devalued - an example is the "lizards" whose weapons were devalued and the turning set was deprived of electric motors, so you can turn it, but only manually). If anyone is interested this is their chance, the fact that no one "in the western hemisphere" has taken it just shows that for various reasons there is no interest in the weapon in question. And the idea that if there is only one of the thing in question somewhere there is a hunger for it is wrong, that's not how the market works, in fact for example in the US there probably isn't even one JAWA Minor car, do you think anyone wants one then, or is it more because simply and plainly no one is interested in it and so no one buys one (despite it being much easier to import a car than a cannon)? I'd say b is correct. And we are back to what was originally here, emotions are useless, realistically we just have to destroy the guns, we can't sell them so we have no choice but to cut them up. That you want to cry about it is of course your business, ultimately your right, but to entertain the notion of millionaires in the western hemisphere wanting to buy the thing from us is nonsense.

K tomu Pionu:
Pán, který ho vlastni se jmenuje Jacques Littlefield a vlastní takové malé muzeum se čtyřmi klimatizovanými halami o rozloze 4407 m2, kde je přes 200 vozidel. Další čekají na rekonstrukci...mnoho vozidel jsou prototypy.
Pion je skutečně od nás, byl znehodnoven, vyřezáním děr 20x20cm do hlavně a korby.
V dílnách byly otvory vyvařeny tak, aby to nebylo vidět, což ostatně dělá na veškeré technice.
Rekonstrukce se dělají kompletním rozebráním, opískováním korby, uvedením motoru do chodu, sehnáním nebo vyrobením náhradních dílů i v půmyslových závodech (torní tyče apod).
Je to drahá zábava, ale dotyčný si to může dovolit, protože je dědic Utah Construction Company (stavěli takové maličkosti jako Hooverova přehrada, Golden Gate Bridge apod.)
Od nás má i další techniku, T-55AM2, myslím že jsem tam viděl i nějakou Tatru, kouknu na CD.

to pistolman, you might have to discount the functionality of the cannon (relying on a TV report as a source is not ideal). As ICE writes it's simply been sold devalued and thus made available to other wealthy buyers, the fact that no one else has bought it is simply a fact and expecting another enthusiast to come along is somewhat nonsensical.
Similarly, the holes in the hull of the Sherman that is in Lesany were welded (I was there when it was brought in and I can confirm them ) so that they would not be visible, so from the outside it looks "new" today. Just the law says devalue so it's devalued (otherwise the army couldn't give it away unless there is a legal buyer for it, i.e. a company that will export it somewhere it's allowed to be exported). Next time, please get the FACTS, i.e. how the rules are set, and don't get emotional over "destruction of value". It reminds me a lot of the crying of many uninformed over the end of the MiG-29s, they were offered for sale and strangely no one wanted them, they took turns delegating which looked at them, nodded and left. It was maintained for several years, for quite a lot of money, and what most of the "experts" who shout about "the horror of the Falcon swap" probably don't know is that one machine was missing one engine, others were missing some blocks and only a few were actually airworthy. The Poles wanted them for spare parts (which were very difficult to get from Russia) and had a big problem, together with our technicians, to get the machines to Poland by the end of the year (it has to do with the closing of the fiscal period or something), and as far as I know the last machine was finally delivered only sometime in January. So, despite the shouting of "informed" journalists and other "experts", the exchange was such that for something that nobody cared about for several years and cost quite a bit of money to maintain, we got the helicopters we needed for the police and ambulance. The only problem (but usually not mentioned) is that according to the Museum Act, one of each type should have been handed over to the museum. And it's just as nonsensical with your emotions and ideas of sales and exchanges. It's been for sale for quite a long time, if no one wanted it what would you want to do with it (when you have an extra obligation to devalue it), leave it somewhere to rot until it disintegrates on its own? And all the while guarding it (it's still army material and the army has to look after it) and keeping records of it? I don't know about you, but I usually get rid of unnecessary stuff if nobody wants it, for example by throwing it in a collection yard (army in the smelter) it's still better than burying it for years to come. And here, if you look at it without emotion, it's practically the same. Why should the army care about an item it doesn't need, and spend money on it (even if only for storage and guarding) when it offered it and no one (except one person who already has it) wanted it?

V televizi tento konkrétní kanon, pokud si dobře pamatuju (na Discovery tenhle pořad běží asi dvacetkrát do roka), i vystřelil- ovšem nejspíš jen slabou prachovou nálož bez granátu, aby to trochu cuklo a začmoudilo, ale nepoškodilo záplaty na hlavni. Co se týče jeho stavu, na http://svsm.org/gallery/2s7-little je fotogalerie.

So I ran through the CDs from the museum, there's one from Eastern Technology, for example:
Older version of SCUD with one cylinder on the side, IS-3,1S32, Lizard, T-62, T-72, 2S1, BTR-40, PSZH-4, ZPU-4, OT-64, Scud ma MAZ 543, T55, BTR-70, ZSU-23-4, T-34/85, BMP-1, T-55AM2, SU-100, D-20, T-12, T-54, OT-810, BTR-152,
PT-76, D-52, T-34/76,


From the West:
M20, M5, M59, M3A1, M5A1, PaK 35/36, M4A3E8, FV432, M1897A2, Kfz 81 Protze, M4A1, M26, M4A3E2, M50, M26 Dragoon Wagoon, M88, T17E1 Staghound, LVTA5, FV438 Swingfire, XM734, Tracked Rapier, Dingo, M274A5 Mule, M578, M2A1, M61, Australian 2pdr on Bren chassis, M551, M16, M62 6x6, M37, Pak 97/38, M60A1, M48A4, PaK 40, M5A1 High speed tractor, Ferret, M901, M29, M548, Comet, Cromwell, M50 Ontos, M3A3, Churchill Crocodile, M42A1 Duster, M8, Samson, Spz.11, Sexton, M103A2, M74, Centurion ARV, Chieftain ARV, Scorpion, M19 GMC, Chieftain Mk.6, M36, Fox, Saladin, M113A1, FMC Light tank, M40 SPH, Renault 1917, SdKfz 222, Hetzer, Sterling 10t., Flak 38, M60A2, M114, Citroen Kegresse, M32, Crusader II, Lynx, Eland, M47, M51, Matilda, SdKfz 251/1, Humber Mk.1, StuG III, M10C, M110, Conqueror, M62 6x6, Centurin Mk.5, RT6000, Abott, M48 Patton prototype, Valentine, M123 10t., Saracen, M3A5 Grant, Churchill AVRE, M43 ambulance, M41 Walker Bulldog, M75 APC, SdKfz. 10, Leo 1A4, M-48AVLB, M47E1, M7 Priest, Klak 36/37, Panzer 61, Nebelwerfer 42, 6.pdr, M1A1 155 mm gun, DUKW, M18, CCV-L, M55 SPG, BMW R75, M44 SPG, AAAV prototype, Panther, Pz.I, and more.

Nikde jsem je ještě neviděl zapsané do seznamu, ale na fotkách z Littlefieldovy kolekce z tohoto roku jsou i dva Leopardy 1.


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