Sestřelené letadlo
I don't know. Isn't that kind of a big deal? Do you have the space for storage of the finds and the means for the most necessary conservation of the found objects (I assume you have the means to uncover 
)? Are you able to thoroughly document the entire find situation? And is there an archaeologist among you with a license for archaeological excavations? If not then you are in violation of the State Historic Preservation Act 20/1987 and all its subsequent amendments by uncovering it.
)? Are you able to thoroughly document the entire find situation? And is there an archaeologist among you with a license for archaeological excavations? If not then you are in violation of the State Historic Preservation Act 20/1987 and all its subsequent amendments by uncovering it.
Reklama
Most importantly, they will probably violate the Nature Protection Act , because the Jeseníky Mountains are a Protected Landscape Area and some sites are completely closed at different times of the year.
I also have the impression that this is pretty partisan.
I also have the impression that this is pretty partisan.
Quote - Michal Rak :
Well, I don't know, isn't it such a hrr action? Do you have a storage space for the finds and the means for the most necessary conservation of the found objects (the means for uncovering I assume you have
Reklama
Well, I can't agree with your opinion.
For one thing, it really is a violation of the law. And secondly, what is the meaning of "dig it up and basta"? Every archaeological site carries a lot of information and if improper methods are used, it is lost. Moreover, it makes sense to dig it up and then hide it, say, at home in the garage where no one will see it. Are colleagues able to identify what aircraft and unit the find came from.
You are right that plates of sites have already been dug up, because this issue has been somewhat missed by archaeologists, and not only in this country. You're right that private collections are full of it, but do we know who found what, where, and in what condition?
Digging up an aircraft is quite the same as digging up a prehistoric hillfort.
In England they have solved this problem with a special law where they grant licenses for aircraft and ship research. The applicant must prove that they know what type of aircraft (craft) it is, when it crashed, and that it does not contain unexploded ordnance or crew remains. It must demonstrate that it has suitable storage facilities and means for the most necessary preservation. If he fails to do this, he cannot dig. Don't you think that's a lot better than similar actions without any controls?
For one thing, it really is a violation of the law. And secondly, what is the meaning of "dig it up and basta"? Every archaeological site carries a lot of information and if improper methods are used, it is lost. Moreover, it makes sense to dig it up and then hide it, say, at home in the garage where no one will see it. Are colleagues able to identify what aircraft and unit the find came from.
You are right that plates of sites have already been dug up, because this issue has been somewhat missed by archaeologists, and not only in this country. You're right that private collections are full of it, but do we know who found what, where, and in what condition?
Digging up an aircraft is quite the same as digging up a prehistoric hillfort.
In England they have solved this problem with a special law where they grant licenses for aircraft and ship research. The applicant must prove that they know what type of aircraft (craft) it is, when it crashed, and that it does not contain unexploded ordnance or crew remains. It must demonstrate that it has suitable storage facilities and means for the most necessary preservation. If he fails to do this, he cannot dig. Don't you think that's a lot better than similar actions without any controls?
I agree with your opinion, of course, but you probably missed that only until 1990 about 300 aircraft of various types were dug up in our country within the framework of various events sponsored only by Svazarm (if you know what it is), and I am not talking about the actions of the Czech Police Bomb Squad etc.Just for your illustration, I personally know about the wreckage of the Ju-88 aircraft that crashed with its crew/sic!/the wreckage, including limbs, was buried and the site was cleaned up.And don't say a word to anyone, because if anyone finds out, it would look like Verdun, a shithole, and you're telling me to obey the law?I would have applied and before I could get it processed, the officials would have told their friends and when I got the permit, there wouldn't have been a screw left on the site itself (which I would have located in my application, of course), sir!
To M.Rak:One more small addition, although to another machine, in the topic Tank in the Elbe near Decin you can read interesting things about the German tank in the Elbe.which we have located quite accurately, but I learned that the Elbe River Basin a.s. has allocated money for its removal.I've been going there for over 20 years, it never bothered anyone, it was never a navigational obstacle, preventing boat traffic and suddenly there is money to pull out the tank, after about 63 years??Wait until the tank is pulled out.And if you think about it,why do they want to pull it out when it is in a sandstone hole 6 meters wide and 4-5 meters deep.Director.
Of course, much was dug up, laws were flouted and Russian planes were used in propaganda, but wouldn't it be a good idea to try to save the rest? Wouldn't it be better to have them uncovered by experts with the resources to work with just such enthusiasts?
You write that over 300 planes have been dug up, but what do we know about them, what does the public get out of it? Nothing at all! Unless you know someone who is digging it, or the groups set up some sort of site to showcase themselves thanks for them) we won't know any information. What's the point then, does such an approach help with adding to the 1939-45 air war events? Not at all!
And here we are again at law abiding,they wouldn't steal the bun either and if they did they must be punished for it. It was the same in England, but unlike here, the researchers there figured out on their own that it wouldn't work like somewhere in the wild west and set up BAAC. Only our society doesn't seem to be that far
You write that over 300 planes have been dug up, but what do we know about them, what does the public get out of it? Nothing at all! Unless you know someone who is digging it, or the groups set up some sort of site to showcase themselves thanks for them) we won't know any information. What's the point then, does such an approach help with adding to the 1939-45 air war events? Not at all!
Citation :
"I would apply and before it was processed,the officials would let their friends know and when I got the permit,not a screw would be left on the site itself/which of course I would locate in my application,sir"
And here we are again at law abiding,they wouldn't steal the bun either and if they did they must be punished for it. It was the same in England, but unlike here, the researchers there figured out on their own that it wouldn't work like somewhere in the wild west and set up BAAC. Only our society doesn't seem to be that far
Quote - director :
..it was never as a navigational obstruction,impeding shipping and lo and behold,suddenly there is even money to pull the tank out,after about 63 years?Wait till the pull out happens/according to you of course respecting all laws/where the tank ends up.And come to think of it,why do they suddenly want to pull it out,when it is in a sandstone hole 6 meters wide and about 4-5 meters deep.Director.
This is the type of project there are plenty of in the west. And if, and given that museums are involved, it should, because if not, this whole discussion is pointless, there is a pull out according to the law, the tank will end up in a museum. Then there is the possibility that the museum may not be interested in the find, they may pass it on somewhere (but the find must be registered). Here of course things like, is it a unique find and is it worth restoring ? do they have somewhere to display it and so on?
Quote - director :
...and the crew/sic!/the bodies, including the limbs, were buried and the place was made respectful.And not a word to anyone...
I don't want to bring unnecessary passion into this but isn't this approach by any chance in violation not only of ethics (i.e. that everyone has the right to a dignified grave and not to be buried in a field somewhere like a mangy dog) but also of the law on burial?
Personally, I find such experts and magnets quite disturbing.If the plane is picked up, everything is properly documented and if the crew (or what is left of them) is found it is buried with dignity after identification in a designated place (for completeness it is usually a cemetery) so I am not against it but such "unofficial" activities remind me a bit too much of grave robbing...(as an example, it is enough how one wreck field above Namesti is being robbed and searched - a pile of debris near the monument is being intensively robbed by magnets with detectors and they circle there again and again and gobble like moles
)
Well, of course it is, but I didn't want to stir it up any further either. The fines here are even higher than the laws around archaeology.
Just for the record, I have an article in History and Militarism about digging planes and laws printed, hopefully in issue 3. And hopefully in the future an extract from a thesis on "aerial archaeology" will be published. The laws are actually kind of the first part of
Just for the record, I have an article in History and Militarism about digging planes and laws printed, hopefully in issue 3. And hopefully in the future an extract from a thesis on "aerial archaeology" will be published. The laws are actually kind of the first part of
Citation - Darkfold :
Citation - Director :
...and the crew/sic!/the troops, including the limbs, were buried and the place was made respectable.And not a word to anyone...
I don't want to get your passions in the air unnecessarily but isn't this approach in any way contrary not only to ethics (i.e. that everyone has the right to a dignified grave and not to be buried in a field somewhere like a mangy dog) but also to the Funeral Act?
Personally, such experts and magnets bother me a lot.If the plane is recovered, everything is properly documented and if the crew (or what is left of it) is found, then after identification it is buried with dignity in a designated place (for completeness it is usually a cemetery) so I am not against it but such "unofficial" activities remind me a bit too much of grave robbing...(as an example, it is enough how one wreckage field above Namesti is being plundered and searched - a pile of debris near the monument is being intensively plundered by magnets with detectors and they circle and gobble like moles again and again
I am such a fool.Moreover we contacted the families and that it was just a flight from Kbel to Oldenburg/SRN/the plane was without ammunition.Have a nice day.Director.
Citation - Director :
We are not magnets and I forgive this accusation.We have reverently landscaped the place and buried the remains in a purchased place in an approved cemetery and it cost me 41 000,-Kč/41 thousand crowns/!!!!in 2003.Citation - Darkfold :
Citation - Director :
...and the crew/sic!/the troops, including the limbs, were buried and the place was made respectable.And not a word to anyone...
I don't want to get your passions in the air unnecessarily but isn't this approach in any way contrary not only to ethics (i.e. that everyone has the right to a dignified grave and not to be buried in a field somewhere like a mangy dog) but also to the Funeral Act?
Personally, such experts and magnets bother me a lot.If the plane is recovered, everything is properly documented and if the crew (or what is left of it) is found, then after identification it is buried with dignity in a designated place (for completeness it is usually a cemetery) so I am not against it, but such "unofficial" activities remind me a bit too much of grave robbing...(as an example it is enough how one wreckage field above Namesti is being robbed and searched - a pile of debris near the monument is being intensively robbed by magnets with detectors and they circle there again and again and gobble like moles
I'm such a fool.Moreover, we contacted the families and it was just a flight from Kbel to Oldenburg/SRN/the plane was without ammunition.Have a nice day.Director.
I apologize if I have offended you in any way, however, your original post did not imply this fact and instead came across as you left the remains buried on site.I approve of your handling of the remains and thank you for at least respecting this, unlike many other searchers.
I think it's getting unnecessarily heated here
From what you write I personally judge that you really don't belong to any gold diggers and grave robbers. That you treated the remains with reverence is obvious from your last post, as is the fact that you maintained decorum and informed the families.
But this was only apparent from your last post, so don't be surprised at the reactions of your colleagues.
It is again apparent from their posts that they have had rather negative experiences in this regard, and unfortunately not everyone behaves as you do.
I think that it is in the common interest of everyone here to avoid excesses like: dig up the plane, take what I like and bury the rest in a hole in the woods somewhere.
You are right to some extent that fighting with officials is terrible and sometimes it is probably easier to circumvent the law, but you cannot directly encourage or recommend this.
The initial reactions from colleagues here on the forum were more likely to make the initial questioner realise what all is involved in such an action (he may know, but it just doesn't appear from his post).
So I think it's really pointless to slag each other off and verbally attack each other here when the aims and views are essentially the same.
From what you write I personally judge that you really don't belong to any gold diggers and grave robbers. That you treated the remains with reverence is obvious from your last post, as is the fact that you maintained decorum and informed the families.
But this was only apparent from your last post, so don't be surprised at the reactions of your colleagues.
It is again apparent from their posts that they have had rather negative experiences in this regard, and unfortunately not everyone behaves as you do.
I think that it is in the common interest of everyone here to avoid excesses like: dig up the plane, take what I like and bury the rest in a hole in the woods somewhere.
You are right to some extent that fighting with officials is terrible and sometimes it is probably easier to circumvent the law, but you cannot directly encourage or recommend this.
The initial reactions from colleagues here on the forum were more likely to make the initial questioner realise what all is involved in such an action (he may know, but it just doesn't appear from his post).
So I think it's really pointless to slag each other off and verbally attack each other here when the aims and views are essentially the same.
Quote - director :
We are not magnets and I am forgiving this accusation.We have arranged the place of remembrance and buried the remains in a purchased place in an approved cemetery and it cost me 41 000,-Kč/41 thousand crowns/!!!in 2003.
I'm such a fool.Plus we contacted the families and they said it was just a flyover from Kbel to Oldenburg/SRN/the plane was without ammunition.Have a nice day.Director.
But of course it's different and an example for others how it can be done too.
On this perhaps just two comments/questions. Have you contacted the Ministry of Defence to have the grave entered into the war grave inventory, and the German People's Association for the Care of War Graves (or whatever it's called) to have it registered. And wouldn't you like to write a short article about it for the war - where the grave is, the names, how the crash happened? As I wrote above, no research is meaningless without the half-blinking results.
And the first responses were really along the lines of making the interviewer aware of what all around needs to be arranged/found out/ensured to make the event meaningful.
Citation - Michal Rak :
Citation - director :
We are not magnets and I forgive this accusation.We have arranged the place of remembrance and buried the remains in a purchased place in an approved cemetery and it cost me sir 41 000,-Kč/41 thousand crowns/!!!!in 2003.
I am such a fool.Moreover we contacted the families and that it was just a flight from Kbel to Oldenburg/SRN/the plane was without ammunition.Have a nice day.Director.
But it is different and an example for others how it can be done too.
On this perhaps just two comments/questions. Have you contacted the Ministry of Defence to have the grave entered into the war grave inventory, and the German People's Association for the Care of War Graves (or whatever it's called) to have it registered. And wouldn't you like to write a short article about it for the war - where the grave is, the names, how the crash happened? As I wrote above, no research is meaningless without the half-blinking results.
And the first responses were really along the lines of making the interviewer aware of what all around needs to be arranged/found out/ensured to make the event meaningful.
What Michal was trying to say is that all the data that can be found in this way should be published not out of interest for the thing in question as such, but with regard to historical preservation, it is worthless if someone digs it up and keeps it for himself, (I understand that as a collector), the important thing is what information can be gleaned from it. Michal has a degree in working with historical artifacts and therefore has a clear idea of what should and should not be done in such a case, he is definitely not a treasure hunter Just in relation to our database of units and aircraft it would be worth knowing exactly the type of machine, marking, the unit from which the crew was, and other information.
Just in relation to our database of units and aircraft it would be worth knowing exactly the type of machine, marking, the unit from which the crew was, and other information.
ps. I don't understand how the publication of the names of the deceased, who according to your words will be buried (were buried) in the cemetery in Usti could help to trace the wreckage of the plane ?
Edit : mea culpa, I can see it now, not in Usti, but in the Ustecky region, I feel that it is a smaller village, so tracing the grave and the cemetery could lead the searchers to the area ... clearly.
Edit : mea culpa, I can see it now, not in Usti, but in the Ustecky region, I feel that it is a smaller village, so tracing the grave and the cemetery could lead the searchers to the area ... clearly.
Citation - Admin :
What Michal was trying to say is that all the data that can be found in this way should be published not out of interest in the thing in question as such, but with respect to historical preservation, it is worthless if someone digs it up and keeps it for himself, (being a collector I understand), the important thing is what information can be gleaned from it.
This is exactly what I had in mind, and all the laws mentioned are after all meant to prevent just the loss of this information, not the persecution of serious people interested in it (but if (any) sites are looted, they have to be cracked down on, which is not happening yet). After all, archaeology (and digging up airplanes and all that) is not the only thing that is being done. WWII is archaeology) is quite a complex matter and an amateur should work with experts on it.
As for the actual artifacts being dug up, in my experience museums and other institutions don't seem to be interested in them as such (they can be quite large, preservation is expensive, they don't care about the period). It's really about the information that the site carries - what was found, what condition was it in, what can it tell us about the event, has any of the colouring and markings of the machine survived, has it been accurately identified and the crew identified? Information from one place is interesting, but from the whole of Bohemia, for example, it already gives a picture of how intense the air traffic was, what kind of units were there. Unfortunately, without this information being published, none of this is possible
Citation - Michal Rak :
Citation - Admin :
What Michal was trying to say is that all the data that can be found in this way should be published not out of interest in the thing in question as such, but with respect to historical preservation, it is worthless if someone digs it up and keeps it for himself, (being a collector I understand), the important thing is what information can be gleaned from it.
This is exactly what I had in mind, and all the laws mentioned are after all to prevent just the loss of this information and not the persecution of serious people interested in it (but if (any) sites are looted, they have to be cracked down on, which is not happening yet). After all, archaeology (and digging planes and everything about 2. WWII is archaeology) is quite a complex matter and an amateur should work with experts on it.
As for the actual artifacts being dug up, in my experience museums and other institutions don't seem to be interested in them as such (they can be quite large, preservation is expensive, they don't care about the period). It's really about the information that the site carries - what was found, what condition was it in, what can it tell us about the event, has any of the colouring and markings of the machine survived, has it been accurately identified and the crew identified? Information from one place is interesting, but from the whole of Bohemia, for example, it already gives a picture of how intense the air traffic was, what kind of units were there. Unfortunately, without this information being published, none of this is possible
4 members of the crew - Chief Petty Officer Anghofer - commander, Petty Officer Krieger - second in command/deputy/, Petty Officer Sollenberg - deck observer/watchman/, and Petty Officer Frejbler - radiotelegraphist/navigator/ suffered severe injuries and fractures and are presumed dead."
The citation continues. 417, the Ju 88 took off from Gbely Airport at 11:30 a.m. for a training flight Prague - Juterborg - Neuruppin - Prague.At the time of the accident there was a strong north wind and a thick fog cap on kitten XXX. The aircraft blew down several tree tops on the kitten and crashed into a rock with its wing, crashed into an adjacent pine forest and burned up". Necessary reports were made.Signature: Palme.
/I b Pol. received copy.P.
Further page 3 of the log: Gendarmerie - District Service Litomerice - 19.4.1944
Daily sheet No.122
Fig: Report of a malfunction concerning the aircraft B.J. + B.M./crash/
Air Force Headquarters XVII in Vienna A:
1. Day and time: 18.4.1944 at 11:51 hours
2. Accident site : north of XXX/XXX-elevation XXX/ 2 km northwest of Řepčice, Litomerice district.
3. Weather situation: foggy, stormy weather, opaque.At the time of the accident, the XXX height was surrounded by a thick cap of fog and a strong north wind was blowing.
4. School flight from Prague to Juteborg - Neuruppin and back. Start: 11:30 am in Prague.
5. Aircraft commander.As far as could still be read from the burnt deck papers:/schipper Anghofer / aviation teacher/
6. Aircraft : Model: JU 88 Heinkel A-12, product no. 0886312, engine type: Judo 211 G /2 engines/Owner. Prague - Gbely
7. Causes. At the time of the accident, XXX was surrounded by a thick cloud cover. The right wing of the aircraft came into contact with a rock and parts of the airframe/wing were torn off. The aircraft flew about 400 m further in a straight line, hit the ground, where on impact it immediately exploded and burned.Firefighting was started immediately to extinguish the resulting fire. The crew of four were thrown out and perished. They are also partially charred and show very severe injuries, especially to their heads.
8. Damage to persons : 4 men dead
9. Material damage : Aircraft totally destroyed.In addition to the aircraft : about 10 acres of 20-year-old pine trees XXX of XXX burned.
10. Witnesses to the accident : Josef Raschel,Rzettau No. 24,Julius Schneider,Rzettau No. 7 and Josef Philipp,Rzettau No. 8.
11. Measures : Telegraphic report immediately to the Prague - Gbely air nest, fulfilled on the same day at 17.00 hours,notification of the Wehrmacht station in Litomerice for the purpose of the arrival of someone from the military arms / armed forces /,the regional office in Litomerice". Signature.
Hello all, that's what I call a reply, although a report from Wast was also promised...
Here's to add who actually was buried:
Fw. Annighöfer, Kurt
Uffz. Krieger, Ernst
Uffz. Freybler, Hans
Uffz. Sollenberger, Anton
all of them at that time at the school FFS B 14 (Prague-Kbely), they died in the Ju-88A-12 WNr.6312
However, I fully stand by the views of Michal Rak, the wreckage of the crashed aircraft is clearly an archaeological find and their retrieval should be approached according to the Act No.20/1987 Coll. on Heritage Care, of course in compliance with all other laws and regulations.
Here's to add who actually was buried:
Fw. Annighöfer, Kurt
Uffz. Krieger, Ernst
Uffz. Freybler, Hans
Uffz. Sollenberger, Anton
all of them at that time at the school FFS B 14 (Prague-Kbely), they died in the Ju-88A-12 WNr.6312
However, I fully stand by the views of Michal Rak, the wreckage of the crashed aircraft is clearly an archaeological find and their retrieval should be approached according to the Act No.20/1987 Coll. on Heritage Care, of course in compliance with all other laws and regulations.
Good day, I'm glad the debate has calmed down. I am not a professional historian or archaeologist, but a psychologist and professionally I am involved in communication, among other things, and I think this was a typical example of the so-called communication barriers typical of PC communication. I am responding to this because there are more debates like this, so hopefully we can learn. Otherwise, good luck with your digging.
I am responding to this because there are more debates like this, so hopefully we can learn. Otherwise, good luck with your digging.
We would certainly have a capture,what is needed for this and for this.Write to meila jrka852@seznam.cz
hello
If I may , I will insert a comment on the digging of planes so called "aerial archeology"
I have been doing this since 85 , when I started to search for downed American and German planes at that time quite unpopular.
But to the point.Is the plane that crashed during WWII or the site of the crash an archaeological artifact , or possibly an archaeological zone or reserve ?
Let's look for the law,for example here
"Act No. 20/1987 Coll. on State Heritage Protection, as amended on 1 July 2007.2008 (full text, accompanied by a selection of case law)"
we will come across the specification of an archaeological find
§ 23
Archaeological finds
(1) An archaeological find is an object (set of things) which is evidence or remains of human life and its activities from the beginning of its development to the modern era and is preserved, as a rule, underground.
So if we consider the end of the so called High Modern period and include the 19th century , the modern period ends with World War I. Then modern history sets in.
Does the type of plane crashed in WWII declare a cultural monument or the impact site a conservation area,or reserve ? I did not get an affirmative answer to either question.
Why all the hype about ? After the revolution, various associations started to emerge like mushrooms after the rain dealing with this issue and hence the competition on the sites with heated relations, including various bullshit during field surveys, etc., including the use of various booms and that they are the only ones who are the right ones, etc.This is really a long story, but again to the point.What do I find ? I know from experience that most of the sites are already dug up , the rest are either inaccessible, built-up, landscaping etc.Sure , everybody would like to dig up their mule or mustang preferably with a Smile sight on.But the reality is completely different.What about the artefacts ? the air museums are not interested in these "twisted sheets" , the regional museums are not interested either. Societies,associations dig their own and they will shout at you that you dug it up and thus violated this and that.Yes,there is a buried dog, including who cares about the twisted plates etc.The more valuable value than the artifact itself is the information,and what type of aircraft it was,preferably the identification of the manufacturers.
Can I dig the plane just like that?
I can't,like every activity it is bound by various laws,concessions etc.So you have to have the permission of the owner of the land,if I am going to excavate by machine,I should have a statement whether there are any utilities running through the land etc. Furthermore, how the contaminated soil, ammunition, crew remains etc. will be handled is quite a costly affair for the individual.The individual carries out the surface collection or local excavation by hand. Nevertheless, it is worth documenting this, photographing the artefacts, if we are able to determine the type of machine, date the event and, most importantly, pass on the information! If I am not able to identify the machine or the event, I can contact people from the museum or aviation historians or associations that deal with this issue at a higher level.If they do not accept you grudgingly, do not despair, there are plenty of them and I am sure you will share your findings with someone.So I will answer am I skilled enough, including financial support for this activity ? If not it is a good idea to join a club or society and participate in this worthwhile activity , where unknown men and events take on a concrete form.I do not want to and will continue to search on my own,by carrying out surface collection etc.Then I would ask all those interested to pass on your findings for further processing , collaborate with various historians and believe that rather than the artefacts themselves it is the information that you will gain.Witnesses to these events are dwindling and locating the impact sites will be all the more difficult
If I may , I will insert a comment on the digging of planes so called "aerial archeology"
I have been doing this since 85 , when I started to search for downed American and German planes at that time quite unpopular.
But to the point.Is the plane that crashed during WWII or the site of the crash an archaeological artifact , or possibly an archaeological zone or reserve ?
Let's look for the law,for example here
"Act No. 20/1987 Coll. on State Heritage Protection, as amended on 1 July 2007.2008 (full text, accompanied by a selection of case law)"
we will come across the specification of an archaeological find
§ 23
Archaeological finds
(1) An archaeological find is an object (set of things) which is evidence or remains of human life and its activities from the beginning of its development to the modern era and is preserved, as a rule, underground.
So if we consider the end of the so called High Modern period and include the 19th century , the modern period ends with World War I. Then modern history sets in.
Does the type of plane crashed in WWII declare a cultural monument or the impact site a conservation area,or reserve ? I did not get an affirmative answer to either question.
Why all the hype about ? After the revolution, various associations started to emerge like mushrooms after the rain dealing with this issue and hence the competition on the sites with heated relations, including various bullshit during field surveys, etc., including the use of various booms and that they are the only ones who are the right ones, etc.This is really a long story, but again to the point.What do I find ? I know from experience that most of the sites are already dug up , the rest are either inaccessible, built-up, landscaping etc.Sure , everybody would like to dig up their mule or mustang preferably with a Smile sight on.But the reality is completely different.What about the artefacts ? the air museums are not interested in these "twisted sheets" , the regional museums are not interested either. Societies,associations dig their own and they will shout at you that you dug it up and thus violated this and that.Yes,there is a buried dog, including who cares about the twisted plates etc.The more valuable value than the artifact itself is the information,and what type of aircraft it was,preferably the identification of the manufacturers.
Can I dig the plane just like that?
I can't,like every activity it is bound by various laws,concessions etc.So you have to have the permission of the owner of the land,if I am going to excavate by machine,I should have a statement whether there are any utilities running through the land etc. Furthermore, how the contaminated soil, ammunition, crew remains etc. will be handled is quite a costly affair for the individual.The individual carries out the surface collection or local excavation by hand. Nevertheless, it is worth documenting this, photographing the artefacts, if we are able to determine the type of machine, date the event and, most importantly, pass on the information! If I am not able to identify the machine or the event, I can contact people from the museum or aviation historians or associations that deal with this issue at a higher level.If they do not accept you grudgingly, do not despair, there are plenty of them and I am sure you will share your findings with someone.So I will answer am I skilled enough, including financial support for this activity ? If not it is a good idea to join a club or society and participate in this worthwhile activity , where unknown men and events take on a concrete form.I do not want to and will continue to search on my own,by carrying out surface collection etc.Then I would ask all those interested to pass on your findings for further processing , collaborate with various historians and believe that rather than the artefacts themselves it is the information that you will gain.Witnesses to these events are dwindling and locating the impact sites will be all the more difficult
[img][/img]Thanks for the message and I am glad that there is someone who really knows what is going on.I know that there are a lot of things found from WW2.I know that there are a lot of things among people, at home in garages, in cellars or in barns.What can we do to get these into one building with everything that belongs to it?I think it would not be a problem to find such a building and make an exposition there, for the sake of those who were shot down, but especially for the young people, so that they are not forgotten.It is not a problem to find a building and adapt it, but we are each from a different part of the country.If there is a need, I will be happy to do it.
I don't want to disillusion you jrka852, but "I don't think it would be a problem to get such a building" is a lot about belief and not much about experience. On the contrary, it would be a big problem. To exhibit such things is a big problem, firstly they are often large artefacts (propellers, engines, landing gear...) and thus bulky, or on the other hand completely uninteresting to the viewer (i.e. twisted sheet metal, remnants of rusty pipes, plexiglass...) so exposure would be quite a problem. And if you try to imagine the volume (I quite do) one building would not be enough for that, so you would end up where you are today, i.e. exhibiting something (like some local museums) and the rest ?
The problem is the money, which is not even for things perhaps more necessary, let alone for salvaging the remains dug up by someone who may not even want to "share" (and believe me a lot of groups won't want to give up the "loot"). The fact that museums don't care about stuff like this is logical, there is only so much to display (and they usually already have) and taking care of the rest costs money and doesn't bring any benefit. Try going to Vyškov, for example, there is a similar collection at the local airport museum, and try asking if they would like more sheet metal, see what they say. The important thing is not the piece, but the information that will determine what kind of machine it was, who flew it and when, whether it was saved or where it ended up. The sheets, I'm afraid, won't support this in the "young".
this jerkbohm, we did a much better experience than with the memoirs with the gendarmerie archives and possibly local chronicles, these were concentrated in the archives in Trebon, they have probably gone back now. The memoirs were a highly uncertain and often completely misleading source (in the 1980s we did this work under the auspices of the local museum - there was no other way). Otherwise, thanks for a solid summary of the whole issue. Unfortunately for many voles it is the material piece that is the issue, the fact that they find nothing in the process doesn't bother them too much, they have their piece of daoma on the wall and feel "rescued" that with a bit of effort one could perhaps identify what the machine was, they often don't care. It really is as you write all about the information.
The problem is the money, which is not even for things perhaps more necessary, let alone for salvaging the remains dug up by someone who may not even want to "share" (and believe me a lot of groups won't want to give up the "loot"). The fact that museums don't care about stuff like this is logical, there is only so much to display (and they usually already have) and taking care of the rest costs money and doesn't bring any benefit. Try going to Vyškov, for example, there is a similar collection at the local airport museum, and try asking if they would like more sheet metal, see what they say. The important thing is not the piece, but the information that will determine what kind of machine it was, who flew it and when, whether it was saved or where it ended up. The sheets, I'm afraid, won't support this in the "young".
this jerkbohm, we did a much better experience than with the memoirs with the gendarmerie archives and possibly local chronicles, these were concentrated in the archives in Trebon, they have probably gone back now. The memoirs were a highly uncertain and often completely misleading source (in the 1980s we did this work under the auspices of the local museum - there was no other way). Otherwise, thanks for a solid summary of the whole issue. Unfortunately for many voles it is the material piece that is the issue, the fact that they find nothing in the process doesn't bother them too much, they have their piece of daoma on the wall and feel "rescued" that with a bit of effort one could perhaps identify what the machine was, they often don't care. It really is as you write all about the information.
to:bitaxe
I apologize for the anonym but I registered under jerkbohm and somehow it didn't take.
Yes it is , searching in various archives,chronicles landrats etc is part of the research , but a lot of machines fell into remote forest,field areas , nowadays quite hard to locate.For example, I know from reports about a machine that fell into a forest with the exact location of the area in the landrat, but today the forest looks much different, I have been looking for the machine for three years on and off and nothing.In a similar case when I was wandering through the forest , I finally found a witness when he said "son come on I'll show you" and found the place with an accuracy of about 10m after 60 years.This is quite a significant help.As for the wild search , we probably can not prevent it , rather than various threats and the like , I would appeal to these individuals to provide their knowledge for further processing.And they probably won't do that if they are just threatened with various flasters instead of offering some cooperation.The truth is that the associations of the association go so to speak in their search for "certainty" why we know. These individuals whether aircraft oriented and the other so called warriors will sometimes stumble , or make a less "catchy" case and it would be good to somehow motivate them to pass the information on. I agree with your view on this issue
I apologize for the anonym but I registered under jerkbohm and somehow it didn't take.
Yes it is , searching in various archives,chronicles landrats etc is part of the research , but a lot of machines fell into remote forest,field areas , nowadays quite hard to locate.For example, I know from reports about a machine that fell into a forest with the exact location of the area in the landrat, but today the forest looks much different, I have been looking for the machine for three years on and off and nothing.In a similar case when I was wandering through the forest , I finally found a witness when he said "son come on I'll show you" and found the place with an accuracy of about 10m after 60 years.This is quite a significant help.As for the wild search , we probably can not prevent it , rather than various threats and the like , I would appeal to these individuals to provide their knowledge for further processing.And they probably won't do that if they are just threatened with various flasters instead of offering some cooperation.The truth is that the associations of the association go so to speak in their search for "certainty" why we know. These individuals whether aircraft oriented and the other so called warriors will sometimes stumble , or make a less "catchy" case and it would be good to somehow motivate them to pass the information on. I agree with your view on this issue
I must admit that I have rather the opposite experience "the witness" knew exactly how the plane crashed, he told about how "the Germans took only the remains of the pilot and the rest included" and of course nothing. The gendarmerie patrol report showed that the plane landed on its belly, the pilot was slightly injured and the plane was guarded and taken away two days later so quite a difference but it's certainly a lot about the particular person, those who have been telling the story for 65 years probably won't be the right "material", the problem (at least in the borderlands) is also that the original witnesses are long gone and only rumors remain, and they are not accurate (like how the downed americans were shot by volkssturm, in real life 4 were found dead in a downed plane - and have a memorial - and the rest were captured and survived.
But I agree that rather than threatening someone (and with no real chance of doing anything) it is better to involve the various vole societies and try to explain to them that nobody is going to take away the "tin on the wall", but that from a historical point of view it is the number, the serial code or something else that will lead to the identification of a particular machine that is interesting. Thinking back to the time we dealt with the "Predy" case, according to the memoirs it was a Frenchman on a Hurricane, it was in reality an American on a P-51 and he was shot down along with his number in an attack on an airport (hence the flak) But maybe you were luckier on good memories (the chronicles are not completely reliable either, we used the parish chronicle (we didn't have another one available at the time) and the parish priest wrote it down once every 1/4 year so he was off by a month in the date that happens too. I haven't done this for years but I've been following it a bit and I admit that some of the digging is quite annoying, it's just a quest to find the physical part without trying to do anything else
"the witness" knew exactly how the plane crashed, he told about how "the Germans took only the remains of the pilot and the rest included" and of course nothing. The gendarmerie patrol report showed that the plane landed on its belly, the pilot was slightly injured and the plane was guarded and taken away two days later so quite a difference but it's certainly a lot about the particular person, those who have been telling the story for 65 years probably won't be the right "material", the problem (at least in the borderlands) is also that the original witnesses are long gone and only rumors remain, and they are not accurate (like how the downed americans were shot by volkssturm, in real life 4 were found dead in a downed plane - and have a memorial - and the rest were captured and survived. But I agree that rather than threatening someone (and with no real chance of doing anything) it is better to involve the various vole societies and try to explain to them that nobody is going to take away the "tin on the wall", but that from a historical point of view it is the number, the serial code or something else that will lead to the identification of a particular machine that is interesting. Thinking back to the time we dealt with the "Predy" case, according to the memoirs it was a Frenchman on a Hurricane, it was in reality an American on a P-51 and he was shot down along with his number in an attack on an airport (hence the flak) But maybe you were luckier
on good memories (the chronicles are not completely reliable either, we used the parish chronicle (we didn't have another one available at the time) and the parish priest wrote it down once every 1/4 year so he was off by a month in the date that happens too. I haven't done this for years but I've been following it a bit and I admit that some of the digging is quite annoying, it's just a quest to find the physical part without trying to do anything else
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, přesto řada "pamětníků" to dodnes tvrdí a věří tomu. Prostě doba je to už dost vzdálená a paměť je ošidná. Určitě jsi narazil na historky o černoších (i můj táta o nich vyprávěl), podle pamětníků pomalu každý pilot byl černoch, v reálu byla jen jedna černá squadrona v itálii a když jsme sehnali fotku "černocha" co byl pohřben kousek od nás, byl to podle fotky blonďák Ale to už jsme hodně daleko
Cesto, it's easy to explain about the blacks on the plane. The Americans were mostly wearing oxygen masks on the planes, which of course were over half of their faces and dark in colour (black, grey or dark brown). Thus, from the ground, it looked to the observer as if the Cernos were flying themselves 
This theory was confirmed by some research in Germany, for the very reason that all witnesses reported how the Cernos were flying over Germany
This theory was confirmed by some research in Germany, for the very reason that all witnesses reported how the Cernos were flying over Germany
Well the research was a ho..o because in reality when I look at any pilot in the cockpit of an aircraft I see nothing but his silhouette and that is usually dark, it has nothing to do with breathers the truth is that if a plane passes by me at 350-400km/h I probably won't get much of a look at it, if it's very close (like 50m) it will be just a blink and I won't have time for details, if it's further away I'll have more time to look, but again I'll see almost nothing so it will be a tiny outline with no details. Otherwise the Germans and British flew in breathers routinely so the research is really about nothing. But I was concerned about something else, and that was that the "witness" and "memorialist" claimed that the guy they buried at our place (so there was time and opportunity to look at him) was a black guy, and well, when we used the number of his P-38 to find out the unit and his identity, it turned out that the grave was marked wrong (the name was mangled) and the guy was apparently blond. My point was that the memory of many of the memorialists was NOT a good resource (honorable exceptions) one of the best memorialists we came across was a guy who was about 13 years old at the time the war ended, but he kept a diary and was interested in airplanes (he wrote down what he had to eat, but also what he saw flying today) his recollection was really good, he just pulled out the notebook and paged through the day. Trusting what I remember is pretty shaky, most people can probably tell when two people (unless they tell each other every now and then) will remember the same thing very differently after a while. Well, 65 years is a lot.
the truth is that if a plane passes by me at 350-400km/h I probably won't get much of a look at it, if it's very close (like 50m) it will be just a blink and I won't have time for details, if it's further away I'll have more time to look, but again I'll see almost nothing so it will be a tiny outline with no details. Otherwise the Germans and British flew in breathers routinely so the research is really about nothing. But I was concerned about something else, and that was that the "witness" and "memorialist" claimed that the guy they buried at our place (so there was time and opportunity to look at him) was a black guy, and well, when we used the number of his P-38 to find out the unit and his identity, it turned out that the grave was marked wrong (the name was mangled) and the guy was apparently blond. My point was that the memory of many of the memorialists was NOT a good resource (honorable exceptions) one of the best memorialists we came across was a guy who was about 13 years old at the time the war ended, but he kept a diary and was interested in airplanes (he wrote down what he had to eat, but also what he saw flying today) his recollection was really good, he just pulled out the notebook and paged through the day. Trusting what I remember is pretty shaky, most people can probably tell when two people (unless they tell each other every now and then) will remember the same thing very differently after a while. Well, 65 years is a lot.
To:bitaxe
But so far I have been lucky that I have always found an old settler , I mean Sudetenland, Silesia.Of course it is not good to strike immediately where the plane crashed . But to chat about the weather etc. best if you start talking as we say in our way . Then they are very helpful.One of the machines was specified by a native , now living in Burg.Cooperation with regional associations is also good, it is almost all the Sudetenland.
Just a question, you as a moderator might know, for what reason was my input post about archaeology deleted ?
Thanks
But so far I have been lucky that I have always found an old settler , I mean Sudetenland, Silesia.Of course it is not good to strike immediately where the plane crashed . But to chat about the weather etc. best if you start talking as we say in our way . Then they are very helpful.One of the machines was specified by a native , now living in Burg.Cooperation with regional associations is also good, it is almost all the Sudetenland
.Just a question, you as a moderator might know, for what reason was my input post about archaeology deleted ?
Thanks
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popravdě mě to taky překvapilo,že ten příspěvek byl anonymní.Přece když chci přispívat,musím být registrován.A to jsem před vložením příspěvku udělal.Níže jsem to vysvětlil.Pokusím se to překopat.Díky za info
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Ale zdá se že to bylo jen asi dva dny a už se to zase nestává. Naštěstí to šlo vyřešit celkem snadno. Příspěvek byl v archivu a šel tedy vrátit.
To the very first post here and to all that followed!I am one of those who had to go to the plane to Jeseniky,it was all according to the rules,and the laws of this country,including the permission from CHKOJ,all within the limits of the law.Only the Museums at that time were not interested in any German,even the Vyškov Museum.We put a lot of time and money into picking up the machine,we searched in the archives for the history of the machine,we know where it took off from,for what purpose and why and what it was shot down.It is dated 17 December 1944, experts will probably know what action it was!The biggest battle over the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia.Then there was nothing, evasive answers, excuses and slander and that we want to promote Germany and other nonsense!Then we read here and elsewhere that perhaps we are robbing graves, that we are magnets and that we want to store something in garages and hide what we wanted to pick up!!!!We are not poachers, we just wanted to help, to find some people who are passionate about a good cause.Instead you insult us here and lecture us about what we know very well!!!We left the plane where it is!It was a huge mistake!It's been about a month since I got information about a large amount of aluminum sheets somewhere in the woods,near the Elf's saddle.We went there immediately and I tell you that the metal thieves were busy.So I thank you all here,for myself,because the others don't even come here anymore!You helped us with a lot of bullshit,what we shouldn't do and that everyone should have a proper resting place.So go look at the Luftwaffe pilot's resting place today.It's definitely not proper and the wreckage of the plane left a hole in the ground and greasy soil all around!Keep talking about what everyone should and shouldn't do,it doesn't matter now anyway!
Dear Colleague, if you read the whole discussion, I'm all affected by Tars' words
So I think it's really unnecessary to slander and verbally attack each other here when the goals and opinions are basically the same.
The questioner and no one else here has bothered to explain the whole situation further, so I'll just stick to general advice and observations here, because we've had quite a bit of (negative) experience with it here over the years. If you know all this and have followed it, that's great, we would like to know more about it, but no further information has been added over the years. I don't think that the tone of your post corresponds to the text written here, nobody is accusing you of anything in particular, on the contrary, we are warning against the same behaviour that you condemn here. So I don't understand your indignation, as if we caused it in any way. So in conclusion, think about whether this is really the appropriate form of your behaviour here.
Quote :
The initial reactions from colleagues here on the forum were more likely to make the initial questioner realise what all is involved in such an act (he may know, but his post just doesn't show it).
So I think it's really unnecessary to slander and verbally attack each other here when the goals and opinions are basically the same.
The questioner and no one else here has bothered to explain the whole situation further, so I'll just stick to general advice and observations here, because we've had quite a bit of (negative) experience with it here over the years. If you know all this and have followed it, that's great, we would like to know more about it, but no further information has been added over the years. I don't think that the tone of your post corresponds to the text written here, nobody is accusing you of anything in particular, on the contrary, we are warning against the same behaviour that you condemn here. So I don't understand your indignation, as if we caused it in any way. So in conclusion, think about whether this is really the appropriate form of your behaviour here.
I'll just follow up on previous posts. Guys no one is stopping you from going out there and doing it. Just everyone was hoping it was a legal venture. If you claim everything was legal I don't see why you didn't go there? Were there not enough of you? There are so many groups out there looking for planes that if you used google you would find someone. This forum, is more about finding and exchanging information of historical ( and of course contemporary) origin.
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