Hello all, I am trying to locate an unusual Tiger 2 tank belonging to Ordonnanzoffizier Alfred Rubbel, Stab. III (turret number III), s.Pz.Abt. 503 (previously turret 331 when Leutnant of Stug 3, Company 3).
In his account of the last days of 503 (in page 142 of a book edited by Dale Ritter (& # 8242; The Tiger Project, Book 1 & # 8242;) Alfred Rubbel says:
"I gave up my my King Tiger, turret number III, just west of Brünn (probably wrong! - does he mean Budweis?) After a short firefight with Czech guerillas at the Moldau (Vltava) Bridge, who tried to stop us and our trek out of there. Also in the ever more difficult mountain terrain of the Bohemian forest, a light bridge prevented our use of heavy armor. Because of this we let our tank crash into a gully. "
(sometime before 10th May 1945).
Does anyone know if this tank was found? Has anyone tried to find it? This would be a rare find !!!
Regards,
James Laver
Translation: Hello to everybody, am I trying to find/locate an unusual Tiger II tank with tower number III, commanded by Alfred Rubbel, the commander's aide? member of staff s.Pz.Abt. 503. In his memories of the last days of the war and the activities of s.Pz.Abt. 503 in "The Tiger Project, Book 1", written by Dale Ritter, Rubbel says: "I left my tank with tower number III west of Brno (probably a mistake - does Budějovice mean it?) After a short shootout with Czech insurgents who tried to stop us on the bridge over the Vltava and prevent us from moving forward. the more demanding mountain terrain of the Bohemian Forest prevented us from proceeding further with heavy armored vehicles. That is why we let our tank go down into a gorge/riverbed washed out by water. " (happened sometime before May 10, 1945)
Do any of you know if this tank was found? Did anyone try to look for him? It would be a very interesting finding !!!
Thank you
James Laver
Translation by: palič: evilbat:
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Interesting topic..however, I guess (for us) nerozlousknutelné. First of all, it's mr. Rubbel slightly confused I think. It's already in the book of The Combat History of German Tiger Tank Battalion 503 in World War II is a lot of confusing and zavádějícíh data about the location in may 1945. Znojmo and the villages around are referred to as Bněnsko, the area of Brno and the like/vice versa,... (see fiber to the Court Knispelovi - forum.valka.cz ) It even location "west of Brno (probably a mistake - has perhaps in mind Budejovice?)" and "bridge over Vltava river"....it is pretty wild for a closer destination. Brno and the Moravian or Czech Budejovice are fairly far apart even to a sentence, to the west from Brno.
But if we assume that had the number III, so I believed that it could be a similar style and design as should Dienst von Korber. He had a machine marked I (unit is the same,...probably would be the same and the marking system,....about,...)on the tower and the shield,....
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Reklama
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Hello all,
Firstly thankyou again...
Wow! this looks like the first photo I have seen of Kommandeur Dr. Nordewin von Diest-Koerber′s Befehlswagen Stab I !!!
He is being towed - presumably this is after the more common picture of the tank stuck in mud near Trebon (Wittingau) May 1945.
I couldn′t understand the Czech only his name.
Rgds,
James
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Translation of Dolins message :
This is interesting topic, but we will be hardly able to answer. First of all, mr. Rubbel has the things confused a bit. In the book, there are several misleading information and confusions about the location of events in May 1945. Znojmo and the villages around it are called "Brno", Brno-surroundings and vice versa (see the Kurt Knispel Topic) And the location "West from Brno" (maybe Budejovice) is very unprecise - Brno, Ceske Budejovice (only city where river Vltava is nearby) and Moravske Budejovice are far away from each other, to be included in "west from Brno" sentence.
If we accept he had number III, so it could be similar style like Dienst von Korber used to have with his number I marking - the unit stays the same, probably the style of the marking stays the same too - PROBABLY
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Yes I think this is true - when I read Rubbel it was clear that his locations were wrong. One definite clue about the whereabouts of his tank is the bit about narrow bridges in the Bohemian forest - this tends to suggest it was lost west of Budweis? Going west means you may have to cross the Vltava/Moldau more than once but the furthest western crossings would be on small bridges.
So Stab III could look like this? (modified Trojca):
Or do I need ′III′ on the barrel mantlet too?
Somewhere west of Budweis... heading for the Vltava...
Rgds,
James
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Reklama
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Well, all the problems with orientation and proper location of current position are usually caused by different map scale... "West of Brünn" looks different on 1:25 000 and on 1:100 000 or even on 1:500 000 it is far away...
Place another "III" not to gun barrel side directly, but to gun mantlet..., probably in the same fashion like it was done on the vehicle comanded by N. v. D-K mentioned above. That is "educated guess" of Dolin404... BTW Trebon is not in Hungary at all.
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Sorry - Czechoslovakia/Czech Republic
I have corrected the picture...
Rgds,
James
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Rubbel also says on page 142 of Dale Ritter′s book:
"...so we let our tank (Stab III) crash into a gully and it was off in the VW(-Küblewagen). On the 10th of May 1945, after disbanding the rest of the Abteilung at DOBRUSCH we approached the american blockade lines, ..."
Is this not Ktiš-Dobročkov? In which case we are close to the western Vltava?
Does this help? were they west of Budweis?
Rgds,
James
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Hello,
I have collected many of the Geographic positions of Knispel and Rubbel in Google Earth. I have included Ktiš-Dobročkov in the hope that someone might be able to find out what happened to Stab III and the other remaining Tiger IIs of 503.
Here is the link to my Google Earth 503 locations as zipped *.KMZ file:
I think a likely location for Stab III are the forests that surround Křemže and Brloh
Regards,
James
URL : https://www.valka.cz/HELP-Tiger-2-Turret-Number-III-Stab-s-Pz-Abt-503-Alfred-Rubbel-Budweis-t87374#324082
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AbyssalPlain, I have a couple of points: 1) You are dead right, Ktiš and its part Dobročkov are villages west of Budweiss, no doubt. 2) I know this area (large woods around Ktiš) very well because of this was one of points on the road we used to move our tracked vehicles through from our garrison to military training area south-west of Budweiss. 3) Have to say that area and terrain is really jagged and well able to provide lots of possibilities to hide vehicles... These roads, although relatively narrow, are well passable by tracked vehicles and I can imagine there were light bridges not able to carry the weight of Tiger II. 4) I can see only dreaded red x where your picture used to be. 5) Budweiss is definitely west of Brünn and it is relatively logical above mentioned officer remembered only one of these two names. Brünn was (from German point of view) well deeply within Soviet area of operations and there were U.S. troops deployed somewhere in western direction along demarcation line waiting to liaise with coming Soviets... So the order of the day for Germans was "Drive your vehicles west as far as you can drive them and then continue either in wheeled vehicles or on your feet to surrender to U.S. troops..." Safe area is somewhere west of Budweiss, behind U.S. lines. 6) Somewhere (and kill me twice I can not remember where) I saw a picture of Tiger II bogged in a gully with broken bridge and waterstream, caption of that picture was something like "western part of Bohemia, tank abandoned by its crew on route to U.S. lines". Sorry, that was/is not my cup of coffee, so it did not attract my deeper interest.
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the stick is silent, it was about 30 km BEHIND the US line from the beginning of May was roughly on the line Protivín, Kamený Újezd and followed at some distance the flow of the Vltava, the line on the river was for a known reason, there was no direct meeting of troops. It is extremely unlikely that the Americans would let the Germans go for more kilometers. In truth, the soldiers who crossed the line after the official end of the fighting (May 8 at midnight) were returned. So stories about how 10.5. Approaching the American line is nice, but bullshit. at that time, there was already a joint patrol service (MP + Red Army) in BW, and the Americans did not even release individuals from broken units. The dissolution of the battalion in question and reaching the line of the US ARM must have occurred earlier, and the Nazt remembers Holt Fart. Moreover, dropping a tank into a ravine at a time when the Russians were breathing on their asses was a fairy tale enough for the armor in question to breathe conveniently on its edge? And pulling this monster was no fun, even when it was time, let alone at a time when their lives were at stake. Documented, the units moved from Telč and Dačice on various routes through J. Hradec (there one Kingtiger stayed at the station) further to Třeboň and Veselí (otherwise not possible due to ponds and swamps) and then to Týn Budějovice and Trhová Sviny and to the US line. It was not an organized and controlled retreat, the units mixed in various ways, the units coming from Prague through Tábor and Soběslav entered it from the north. A number of bridges led across the river (Vltava), but basically only the railway ones were able to carry the weight of Kingtiger, the bridge in ČB (Long Bridge) would not support them, another bridge was in Hluboká (still stands) then in Týn, it also stands in Žďákov (wooden) which is about everything.
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Well, he writes there (or rather tells) that KT went to the ravine because a light bridge would not support it ... By the way, not too far (12-15 km as the crow flies) from Ktiš to the north-northwest is a place/crossroads near Vítějovice, where they erected a monument after 45, then demolished it again and now there is another, larger one. On the original monument/plaque (it was in the museum in Prachatice, now in place again) it is written that there (at the crossroads near Vítějovice) the Americans were waiting there from May 9 and stopped the Germans and Hungarians, who were fleeing that ours were guarding a fairly large group there. prisoners and all the Soviets did not wait until May 13 ... Photo boards here: http://foto.mapy.cz/50376-pomnik-setkani-5-armad including map ... In other words, it only confirms the knowledge that the establishment of contact between the Americans and the Soviets did not take place everywhere on the same day ... After all, it corresponds to the brothel that prevailed here ...
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it wasn't even about the brothel, you write about the fact that there were no Russians everywhere, many places were visited only at a time when it was already a few days after the war. It is the smaller places that are quite typical. The Russians had no reason to hurry at all, so it's no wonder. And the fact that the Americans guarded the prisoners there for handing over again shows that 10.5. no one would let them into the US zone again. And deliberately, where in our country in southern Bohemia do bridges lead over a ravine so that it would be possible to overthrow the tank? Those "memories" show what the "heroes" were like, but probably not the reality. The Kingtigers were usually without fuel, or due to a technical failure (the one near Třeboň, perhaps due to the setting). They also usually stood still for a long time.
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Citace - palič :
6) Somewhere (and kill me twice I can not remember where) I saw a picture of Tiger II bogged in a gully with broken bridge and waterstream, caption of that picture was something like "western part of Bohemia, tank abandoned by its crew on route to U.S. lines". Sorry, that was/is not my cup of coffee, so it did not attract my deeper interest.
Thanks for this... its very ′tantalising′. There seems to be some debate why Rubbel drove his Tiger II into a gully whilst retreating to the US lines. Why run it over a ravine instead of blowing it up where it is - as per procedure? Perhaps he knew his Tiger might be found after the war and for unknown reasons he couldn′t destroy it with explosives?
Rgds,
James
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I do not know that at all. I was not with him at the moment he realised that the bridge ahead was too light to carry the weight of his KT. May be he was short of time, short of explosives, run out of fuel? You think he believed in Americans, Brits and Germans fighting side by side against Russians?
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Well, gentlemen, when you manage to limit the location to at least a few hundred square meters, let me know, I'll be happy to come there with a detector
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Citace - Hanyz :
Well, gentlemen, when you manage to limit the location to at least a few hundred square meters, let me know, I'll be happy to come there with a detector: -)
Translate 4 AbyssalPlain:
Well gentlemen, let me know when you could be able to locate the area with accuracy about a few hundreds meters - I would be glad to help you finding this "big beast" with metal detector.
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Gentlemen,
I have some more information from the large book on 503 by Lochmann, Rosen and Rubbel. On page 359, The Kommandeur (Stab I) Dr. Nordewin von Diest -Koerber says:
"In the morning of 10th May (1945) we passed through the city (Budweis) and left it behind as we continued on the main road to the west. There was a large airfield on our right that was full of american bombers. Among them and to our unpleasant surprise were also some Russian aircraft..."
Then:
"We were moving further west at walking pace, with the LAST TWO TIGERS between us... at 1100hrs a german sidecar motorcycle with the Korps Special Duty Officer said that the Americans had detained General Kleeman and that all negotiations with the Americans had been denied".
Then: "...I ordered all the companies (presumably soon after 1100hrs?) to immediately turn off the road to the right; exfiltrate the vehicles and assemble in a clearing in the forest to the right.... After disabling all the vehicles, the last two Tigers were blown-up nearby"
OK - so if we look at this area in ′Google Earth′ we can see that the road that Bt. 503 was on was highway 143 to Mříč. The question is at which forest clearing did they disband/split up? If their speed was about 5km/hr And if they were west of Budweis in the early morning and past the airport before 1100hrs then woods or forests after the airport but before Mříč ? are a good place to start searching or asking questions
REMEMBER; Alfred Rubbel said that 503 was disbanded/split-up at Dobročkov which is much further west than Mříč. So could 503 have got as far as Mříč on the 10th of May? Maybe not... distance from the Vltava bridge at Budweis to Dobročkov is 25kms.
One other idea is to ask a Czech University for airborne magnetometer data - tanks are big enough to show up on these surveys!!!
I′d love to come over and help!!!
Regards,
James
URL : https://www.valka.cz/HELP-Tiger-2-Turret-Number-III-Stab-s-Pz-Abt-503-Alfred-Rubbel-Budweis-t87374#324919
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The witness was somewhere else. 10.5. the Red Army was already in Č. Budějovice. He got to the center on May 9 at 5:30 p.m., so the stories of the "witness as they walked through the city a day later are nonsense, about the 86th Guards Rifle Division of General VS Sokolovsky would hardly allow him. The airport near Budejovice was NEVER full of Americans, according to photos was full of wrecks of German planes and the Russians landed there later (after removing the FW 190 and Ju 88 from the runway) the airport would be on the right hand side, but in 1945 it had a grass runway oriented at an angle of almost 90 ° to today's and farther from the road (One of the original hangars still stands.) Even the crossing of the river to get to the airport is very doubtful, at that time, as far as I know, only the Long Bridge was sufficiently load-bearing and it is right in the center, so it is quite unlikely that the retreating unit passed unnoticed. After all, German troops retreated more along the Linz road to the village of Včelná and further towards Kamený Újezd.The road to Křemže (Mříč is its closest neighbor towards Č. Budějovice) is theoretically possible, but not in 1945 10. 5 .. The landscape is slightly undulating and definitely does not allow you to hide a truck there. The idea of looking for a tank is therefore rather humorous. We went through the whole area about 20 years ago while searching for the fate of American pilots shot down on April 17, 1945, witnesses remembered both machines (shot down over Planá airport), but they were definitely not aware of the tanks the nearest tiger stood near Třeboň that similar machines in a densely populated area have escaped attention is nonsense, the whole area is and has been farmed, so the idea that a tiger is rolling somewhere is about as likely as finding a submarine in the Sahara
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OK - sorry I spoke ...
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Its all right, but memories are very dubious source. In archive is more correctly information.
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"The last combat-ready Konigstiger heavy tank section 503./FHH, which his crew abandoned the tank 10.may 1945 in the municipalities of Den, near the road to Prachatice, just before the american lines. The machine bore the number "213". The penultimate fight Konighstiger with the number "112" bogged down in the waterlogged meadows a few hundred yards to the east. ..."
So much in the book May 1945 in the Czech lands from Thomas Jakla, page 118. There are photos of this tank, and photos vagonování wreck konigstigera von Diest-Korbera, which was abandoned in the Area.
Please a translation
Last operational Königstiger heavy tank belonging to s. Pz.Abt. 503 was abandoned by her crew in the vicinity of the Den on the road to Prachatice nearby US lines, on May 10, 1945. This tank sported a turret number 213. Last but one operational Königstiger belonging to the same unit was bogged down in a swampy meadow in a distance of a few hundred meters east of the abandoned 213. That tank sported a turret number 112.
Quoted from the book May 1945 in the Czech lands by Tomas Quadrangular, page 118. There are pictures of the above mentioned tank (213) in the book and photographs of the Königstiger wreck formerly commanded by Dr. Nordewin von Diest-Koerber and abandoned in the vicinity of Trebon being pulled that railroad platform.
The supplication was granted .
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THANKS STEINER!
OK so let′s look at the Czech ARCHIVE information...
The book by Tomáš Jakl "Květen 1945 v českých zemích" (see the first picture): - on page 118 shows this picture with czech text (see the second picture):
This CLEARLY states that Tiger II (turret no. 213) of s.Pz.Abt. 503 was photographed on the road between ′Brloh′ and ′Prachatice′, 10th of May 1945. Another Tiger II (112) was abandoned only a few hundred metres further east...
That′s exactly where I said they would be...
Presumably all these wonderful tanks also ended up in the iron smelters? (page 119)
Hopefully that concludes my case... the Germans were exactly where they said they were. There was one thing that Panzer battalion Kompaniechef like Diest -Koerber could do and that was READ A MAP!
End of my case... so back to you guys - where are the tanks? Did you melt them down?
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I am slightly afraid that could be said there is higher than the highest probability these two KTs were scraped, cut into parts and then melted... They were turned into ploughshares... or even into factory fresh license built T-34/85.
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Definitely - the Tiger II recycling team look very experienced!!!
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These lads belong to Czechoslovak army recovery team, let us say REME equivalent... Vehicles were recycled later in the ironworks...
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In short.....
Basically missing just a photo. News and memories from old-timers (albeit fragmentary), chronicles (albeit inaccurate) and the deduction from all of this in the confrontation with the minutes of the official sources put together is often a more complete picture....
I only bring the loss of what were able to trace (more to state yet I can't - cut-outs of the paragraphs - p. Kos via Valleys - from the upcoming book )
When 10. may early in the morning 503 section appeared before the Třeboní, had three tanks. This means that on the way to Trebon came about 9 machines. In Jindřichův Hradec and surroundings are photographs documented a total of three tanks Königstiger. According to the testimony of local old-timers can conclude that in the vicinity of the city was 9. may 1945 a total of 8 of these tanks.
Further to the "112" what my colleague quotes mr. Jakla.... The 112 to me so far failed to get a photo. However, there is a fairly accurate picture (watercolor..I do art too I'm not giving..about watercolours or something )where it's painted on this kingtiger. It's only about the image...however, when there is no photo..
Dolin.
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Hi, in one of your older posts you are referring to the pictures of the destroyed Kingtigra on Vranov. Not far from the place where the tank remained, I live and I would like some pictures to see. Also you mentioned about the book that you are preparing - is already available? Thank you..
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so that it would be possible to overthrow the tank? Those "memories" show what the "heroes" were like, but probably not the reality. The Kingtigers were usually without fuel, or due to a technical failure (the one near Třeboň, perhaps due to the setting). They also usually stood still for a long time.
so that it would be possible to overthrow the tank? Those "memories" show what the "heroes" were like, but probably not the reality. The Kingtigers were usually without fuel, or due to a technical failure (the one near Třeboň, perhaps due to the setting). They also usually stood still for a long time.
.
.
)where it's painted on this kingtiger. It's only about the image...however, when there is no photo..