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Citace - Tomak :
Milý Marosi.r my se tady bavíme o roku 1944! Dám Ti jednu radu prečti si předchozí příspěvky.
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Citace - Fantan :
US pomoc SNP neexistovala.
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Citace :
Takže vlastne neúspech celej dlho pripravovanej akcie zavinili žhaví partizáni.
Citace :
Neviete niekto, čo sa vlastne stalo v Martine? Aká partizánska skupina a akú misiu tam vlastne poslala na oný svet?
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Citace - mirageiva :
pánové,někdo zde napsal,že SNP bylo alibistické.Podle mě bylo,když se začala karta WW II obracet,tak slováci"prekabátili"V opačném případě by je to ani nenapadlo,viz útok slovenské armády na Polsko a SSSR po boku němců.
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Citace - mirageiva :
...když se začala karta WW II obracet, tak slováci "prekabátili". ...nevidím důvod, proč by RA se měla nějak moc angažovat na pomoc SNP, když Rusové měli Slovákům co oplácet, zvláště potom,když se nechaly "odzbrojit" dvě východoslovenské divize, které měly obsadit Dukelský průsmyk....
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Citace - Pavel J. Kuthan :
K východoslovenským divizím:
Velitel svazku generál Malár, původně víceméně chladný k povstání po příletu do Bratislavy povstání zradil...
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Citace - morphee :
Ten kpt. Malár, o ktorom som čítala totiž nebol proti povstaniu.
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Citace - bitaxe :
to Morphee jsem si zcela jist že státní celek na slovensku mezi lety 1939 - 1945 se jmenoval Slovenský štát. Naopak mne překvapilo že ho někdo zná pod jménem republika, v literatuře jsem se s tímto názvem nesetkal.
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Citace - aranai :
Oficiálny názov je Slovenský štát. Nemá to však nič spoločné s jazykovou správnosťou, alebo politologickou definíciou republiky. Bola to proste požiadavka Nemcov, ktorej Tiso rád vyhovel. Klerofašizmus presadzuje ústavu, založenú na božích prikázaniach, spoločnosť usporiadanú do kást a diktatúru katolíckej cirkvi. Pojem REPUBLIKA občanom až príliš pripomínal ČSR, Masaryka a Beneša. Tiso sa republiku vytvoriť nesnažil, ani tento pseudoštát tak nenazýval, práve naopak, chcel, aby sa na všetko, čo by len trochu mohlo pripomenúť starú republiku zabudlo...
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Citace - bitaxe :
ani ve vloženém příspěvku (pokud to mohu posoudit s mou němčinou) není o nasazení proti SNP zmínky, píše se zde že divize byla nasazena v Dukelském průsmyku a v Budapešti což je poměrně daleko od bojů SNP které bývají chápány spíše jako boje v oblasti B. Bystrice a následný ústup do hor. Navíc je otázkou zda souběžně nebojovaly dvě části divize (třeba část pěchoty v Karpatech a zbytek s většinou tanků v Maďarsku (tam jsou pro obrněnou techniku obecně lepší podmínky) ale nevím nejsem na SNP odborník, proto se snažím nalézt odpověď na původní otázku.
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Citace - bitaxe :
to perun 39 díky, na rozdíl od toho co (jako obvykle špatně) předpokládá Aranai mne nepřekvapuje že šlo o starší typy, to jsem věděl už před tím, těžké zbraně němci dostali z velké části z opravárenských a doplňovacích základen které byla po ruce (Pz-38t byly z Vídně), bylo to způsobené právě tím že šlo o jednotky sestavené ad hoc a nasazené co nejrychleji. spíš je zajímavý počet i když třeba 251 asi nejde srovnávat s tanky.
to Aranai bohužel pokud vojska u nichž je napsáno dukelský průsmyk (a tak to v tvé původní citaci je) počítáš do bojů SNP dostaneš se k číslům která sice zní hrozně zajímavě, leč nejsou moc reálná, obvykle se dukelská operace a SNP chápou jako dvě samostatné a pokud bys je chtěl sčítat u němců pak bys je měl sčítat i u druhé strany, ale dělej jak myslíš.
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Citace - aranai :
Tak nazväčšia pravdepodobnosť že nájdeme tanky a spol. je asi u 8. tankovej, hľadám teraz podrobnosti, ale nebudem ich asi mať k dispoz. skôr ako zajtra. Tu je to čo som zatiaľ zistil:
V záznamoch je v septembri 44 dislokovaná do Karpát pod velením
XXIV-1PzArmee-Nordukrajine
V októbri
XXIV-1PzArmee-A miesto lokácie "Slowakei"
V novembri v rezerve
6Armee-A miesto lokácie "Slowakei"
Zaujímavé, že vo faktografickom fore na tejto stranke sa to vôbec neuvádza, je tam napísané iba pôsobenie v Budapešti a ČR. Údaje sú asi prebraté z http://www.axishistory.com, kde sa to tiež neuvádza.
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Citace - Peto :
ukrajinska divizia SS - 14 000 mužov
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Citace - Fantan :
Tak tohle je na mne složité. Já si to nahrál normálka jako video VHS Sice tady lilo taky, ale videu to tolik nevadí. Bohužel-protože to nahrávám jen pro vlastní potřebu, mám to jen v kvalitě LP, zato to budu mít pohromadě - oba díly.
Zdá se mi to velice dobře udělané.
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Citace - jocai :
Áno SNP bolo tým, čo nás zaradilo medzi víťazov vojny a to aj napriek tomu, že sme boli spojenci nemcov. Z pohľadu dnešnej doby to už ale nemá moc veľkú váhu. Ale na druhej strane to bol aj veľký hazard. Na slovensku sa k povstaniu nepripojila časť slovenskej armády a hrozilo, že nemci tu obsadia celú územie a mohli s nami zachádzať ako zo zradcami. Veď z ich pohľadu sme tak určite aj vypadali. Možno, že nás zachránilo to kritizované rozdávanie metálov Tisom nemeckým vojakom a podpora slovenskej vlády k nemeckej vládnej moci. Mali sme štastie.
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Citace - Luboss :
Nemal som moznost precitat celu diskusiu ale dovolim si napisat cosi k teme: Rusi na Poliakov srali- v Katynskom lese to nazorne ukazali...Takze v tomto style cakali pred Varsavou, prislo im len vhod ze ich vyzabijaju Nemci...Inak tusim ze velitelom RA na tomto useku bol nejaky Poliak... Skratka slo o cisto politicko-mocenske rozhodnutie.
A SNP - bolo to z vacsiny "komunisticke" povstanie, neviem ako ho ZSSR podporoval vzhladom na svoje moznosti ale napr. pri vacsine oddielov boli "pridelenci" z Moskvy... Bola snaha (na oboch stranach )aby "vsetko" slo cez Moskvu. A aj na Dukle bol v prvej linii (o.i.) 1.ceskoslovensky armadny zbor v ZSSR a tito sa VAZNE chceli co najskor prebojovat na SK, ale nedarilo sa im to a pokial viem vrchne velenie RA bolo same sklamane ze im to tak trva a musia byt na ich useky pridelovane aj ine jednotky...
Takze ja vidim v tychto povstaniach podstatne rozdieli...Len tolko, prepacte ak to tu uz bolo
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Citace - Luboss :
Nemal som moznost precitat celu diskusiu ale dovolim si napisat cosi k teme: Rusi na Poliakov srali- v Katynskom lese to nazorne ukazali...Takze v tomto style cakali pred Varsavou, prislo im len vhod ze ich vyzabijaju Nemci...Inak tusim ze velitelom RA na tomto useku bol nejaky Poliak... Skratka slo o cisto politicko-mocenske rozhodnutie.
A SNP - bolo to z vacsiny "komunisticke" povstanie, neviem ako ho ZSSR podporoval vzhladom na svoje moznosti ale napr. pri vacsine oddielov boli "pridelenci" z Moskvy... Bola snaha (na oboch stranach )aby "vsetko" slo cez Moskvu. A aj na Dukle bol v prvej linii (o.i.) 1.ceskoslovensky armadny zbor v ZSSR a tito sa VAZNE chceli co najskor prebojovat na SK, ale nedarilo sa im to a pokial viem vrchne velenie RA bolo same sklamane ze im to tak trva a musia byt na ich useky pridelovane aj ine jednotky...
Takze ja vidim v tychto povstaniach podstatne rozdieli...Len tolko, prepacte ak to tu uz bolo
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Citace - RoBoT :
Nicméně nelze vidět jen Varšavu. To byla z části součást širšího plánu, jehož cílem bylo převzít správu země v situaci krátkého vakua mezi odchodem Němců a příchodem Sovětů. Sověti si ale s tímhle hlavu moc nelámali, takže rozhodně nelze říci, že Stalin by v tomhle byl čistý jak lilie
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Citace - KuLe CZ/PL :
Zdravím,
tady je odkaz na české stránky o Varšavském povstání, snad tam najdete vše potřebné
http://varsavskepovstani1944.wz.cz
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Citace - jirka vrba :
U Varšavy stál 1. běloruský front v té době ještě pod velením Rokossovského.
Co se týká SNP tak myslím, že rusáci nechali SNP na holičkách stejně jako Varšavu, pomoc, kterou poskytli byla pozdě a malá - jenom politické gesto.
Jestli to byl zlý úmysl, nebo neschopnost, tak to se necítím kompetentní rozhodnout - ták moc jsem to zase nestudoval, ale vzhledem, k tomu co jsou bolševici zač, tak bych vsázel na to první.
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Citace - Hartmann :
Jan Drozd
Ovšem myslím si, že by ofenzíva na Visle mohla proběhnout již během 2 měsíců tj. během října-listopadu. Avšak druhý hlavní důvod byl politický.
Jaký to byl ten politický důvod? To by mě tedy zajímalo. Připomenu, že v Tebou uvedeném termínu říjen-listopad bylo již po konci povstání.
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Citace - Hartmann :
1 - pokud se někdo do něčeho pustí bez předchozí dohody nemá nikdo od nikoho právo žádat pomoc
2 - zákaz přistávání západních letadel na sovětských letištích je pohádka pro děti. západní letadla s pomocí povstalcům v SSSR normálně přistávala. není nic snašího než si na amerických stránkách vyjet seznam letů USAAF za WW2 a tam lze najít lety na pomoc povstalcům, které přistávaly v Poltavě. to s tou municí a nepadáky je dost přehnané. rovná se to v podstatě tomutéž, jako obviňovat RAF z cílené snahy zmasakrovat výsadkáře v Arnhemu
3 - no comment
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Citace - Tomák :
Ještě k tý Varšavě. Rusové by jim určitě pomohli, jen kdyby tady nebyl faktor STALIN. A tak Poláci se dočkali jenom pomoci Angličanů, který jim něco málo shodili z letadel. A dobrá půlka těch zásob ještě padala na hlavu němcum.
Chtěl by se Vás zeptat, co myslíte proč Rusové pomohli SNP a Varšavě ne.
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Citace - Valmont :
Kolik obětí stála pomoc SNP-přechod Dukelského průsmyku, není třeba opakovat. Možná i tato zkušenost hrála v rozhodování Sovětů váhu-nezapomeňme, že ve Varšavě byly jednotky SS generála Bacha-Zelewskiho a jednotky SS byly obávanějším nepřítelem než řadové jednotky Wehrmachtu
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Citace - Aubi :
Jak už zaznělo v jiné debatě, Beneš po vytvoření londýnského exilu operoval s tím, že porušením mnichovské dohody ze strany Německa (tj. okupací zbytku Čech a Moravy) zaniká také to, co se po právní stránce v Československu dělo - včetně vynulování jeho demise a také slovenská autonomie/samostatnost. Na této myšlence byla postavena kontinuita lonýnského exilu a prvorepublikové vlády. Slovenští účastníci londýnské exilové vlády to tak také uznali.
Mimochodem, jak to myslíš, "nechal napospas"? Myslíš, že s Benešem v čele Česko-Slovenska by něco dopadlo jinak? A jak mohl nechat napospas Hitlerovi Slováky, když jejich čelní zástupci z HSLS s Hitlerem (více či méně ochotně) dobrovolně spolupracovali na rozbití země?
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Citace - Aubi :
Jak už zaznělo v jiné debatě, Beneš po vytvoření londýnského exilu operoval s tím, že porušením mnichovské dohody ze strany Německa (tj. okupací zbytku Čech a Moravy) zaniká také to, co se po právní stránce v Československu dělo - včetně vynulování jeho demise a také slovenská autonomie/samostatnost. Na této myšlence byla postavena kontinuita lonýnského exilu a prvorepublikové vlády. Slovenští účastníci londýnské exilové vlády to tak také uznali.
Mimochodem, jak to myslíš, "nechal napospas"? Myslíš, že s Benešem v čele Česko-Slovenska by něco dopadlo jinak? A jak mohl nechat napospas Hitlerovi Slováky, když jejich čelní zástupci z HSLS s Hitlerem (více či méně ochotně) dobrovolně spolupracovali na rozbití země?
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Citace - bitaxe :
to Bboris, myslím že si pleteš historika a politika, politik dělá to co popisuješ, tedy hodnotí si dějiny tak jak se mu to právě hodí, takže SNP je jednou akcí slovenských komunistů (především partyzánů) podruhé naopak je to akce slovenských důstojníků a potřetí slevenského lidu...
Historik se naopak musí oprostit od podobných nesmyslných výkladů a dívat se na věc v komplexu podmínek a reálií dané doby, jinak to není historik ale pohádkář. A jestli si myslíš že dívat se na to "dnešním pohledem" je myslet si že když existoval "plán" bylo ho možno realizovat bez ohledu na okolnosti a ty by se ohnuly podle dnešní reality, jsi nezlob se docela mimo. Já vím že "pohled dnešníma očima" je oblíbená mantra, ale jen ukazuje že si neuvědomuješ že to není o pohledu dneška, ale o realitě dané doby. Podobně by němci )občas to dělají) mohli tvrdit že kdyby jim vyšel generálský plán na odstranění AH byli by demokratickou zemí, jenže ten plán (stejně jako ten Čatlošův) nikdy nebyl realizován a nelze tedy předvídat co by se stalo,uspěl by, pokud ano co by následovalo? Takže podobné konstrukce nejsou o historii, ty jsou o žvanění co by bylo kdyby ... Nezlob se ale na podobné nesmysly mně nestojí za to reagovat, hrát si na podobné blbiny mi nestojí za to. Historie je o reáliích a ne o podobných konstrukcích, pokud bych už se chtěl podobnou nesmyslností zabývat vyberu si něco podstatnějšího, třeba co by se stalo kdyby AH přistoupil v únoru 1942 na Satlinův návrh o zastavení bojů, ne přemýšlet nad něčím co by skončilo v zásadě stejně ať by se realizovalo nebo ne.
Pokud se zajímáš o historii pak se snaž pracovat s fakty, ne s tím co by se bylo stalo kdyby ..., pokud se chceš stát novinářem nebo politikem je ovšem cesta vymýšlení co by se stalo kdyby ta přesně správná, umožňuje totiž naohýbat si realitu dle dané objednávky.
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Citace - bitaxe :
No buď slovo "výklad" znamená u nás něco jiného než na Slovensku, nebo se mýlíš ty. Výklad dějin se tím že jsi získal jinou informaci o místě sestřelu nijak nezměnil, ten totiž mluví o tom že v dané letecké bitvě zvítězili ti nebo oni, dokonce jedni mohli zvítězit takticky a druzí strategicky ve stejné bitvě. To co popisuješ NENÍ, opakuji není výklad dějin, je to upřesnění faktu kde daný stroj spadl. S podobnými "pamětníky" jsem se setkal mnohokrát a to že jejich "fakta" jsou často pochybná vím, ale to jde o upřesnění faktu ne o jeho výklad, to by sis měl ujasnit, K výkladu dojede (a teď to přeženu) když jednou budeš tvrdit že daný stroj byl sestřelen když pomáhal SR v boji proti němcům a podruhé když budeš tvrdit že šlo o vzdušného piráta bombardujícího slovenskou rafinérii, to bude "výklad" historie. Fakta ale budou pořád jen jdena při letu byl sestřele stroj XY a dopadl na zem, to kde dopadl je upřesnění faktu ne jeho výklad. Výklad dějin je věcí ne historika ale třeba politika, učitele nebo novináře. Historik má daný děj zachytit na základě faktů a dokladů, "výklad" je právě to co se psalo třeba o SNP, tedy ohnutí faktů dle aktuální objednávky, podobně je výkladem i třeba husitství, i zde jde o účelový výklad, který pomíjí řadu historických fakt. Historik má dané období podrobně popsat (pokud možno bez emocí a osobních sympatií) nikoli vykládat.
To že se postupně objevují nová fakta neznamená že se jak píše "mění výklad dějin" to platí možná pro politiky, dějiny se mohou novými fakty upřesňovat, můžeme je chápat lépe, ale není to o výkladu. Vykládat dějiny je typický nešvar různých politických směrů, které se snaží najít v dějinách potvrzení vlastní skvělosti, nemá to ale s historií nic společného. Ta je jen jedna. Na faktu že třeba Otakar Jaroš padl u Sokolova nic nemění to že komouši z něj udělali málem soudruha, ten člověk tam prostě padl a soudruhem nikdy nebyl, jen se povedlo komoušům zamlčet něco právě z historie a "vyložit" si ji po svém.
Takže milý Bborisi, myslím že ne já, ale ty špatně chápeš a ještě hůře formuluješ. Vykládat se dá možná víra, nebo karty, ale ne fakta, ta jsou daná a lze je upřesnit, opravit, ale vykládat je je nesmysl. A nezlob se pokud s košičanem hájíš teorii co by se stalo kdyby vyšel Čatlošův plán (poněkud přehnané označení pro tu věc) pak se bavíš právě o tom co by kdyby.
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Citace - bitaxe :
Pokud vím zapojil ses do What if diskuze a to na straně toho kdo ten plán hájil jako jednu z možností, pokud jsi to myslel jinak pak je to s tvým vyjadřováním opravdu slabé, možná ještě horší než ten "výklad". Ale já o diskuzi s tebou o vykládání historie nikdy nestál, poslední kdo se mi snažil "vykládat" historii byli komunisté a to už je docela dlouho ani tehdy jsem jim příliš nevěřil , takže na různé výklady jsem docela alergický.
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Citace - Fantan :
Pomoc státu není možno zaměňovat s účastí jeho občanů v některé jednotce, ať již pravidelného vojska, nebo partyzánů. Svého času ještě za federace bylo zveřejněno, kolik že Neslováků se zúčastnilo bojů za Povstání a bylo toho neurekom.
Naopak Fajtl popisuje problémy, když na Tri Duby někdy krátce po 7. říjnu (přesněji se mi nepodařilo datum dešifrovat) přiletělo šest B-17 v doprovodu 40 Mustangů. "Přiletěli pro své lidi, kteří uprchli z německých lágrů, nebo se po sestřelení nad Protektorátem, nebo nad Slovenskem dostali s pomocí dobrých lidí až na povstalecké území, kde čekali na přílet svých kamarádů. Měli je odvézt do Itálie".
Protože Mustangy poletovaly v prostoru, kde operoval náš stíhací pluk, přičemž ani Američané, ani naši nebyli o této možnosti informováni, došlo dokonce k napadení Čížka a Hlučky, prvního dokonce střelbou, jíž byla poškozena směrovka.
A to je jediná v pramenech zmiňovaná "účast" USA na SNP. Za pomoc bych ji tedy rozhodně nepovažoval.
Jiná věc je, že USA si svých občanů váží a jestliže někteří Američané v SNP padli, umějí svou úctu ukázat.
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