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Citace - bitaxe :
Jak píše Admin pokud by šlo o obranou válku stačilo po zničení soustředěných sovětských vojsk přejít do obrany (třeba na linii původní polské hranice, a ušetřené vojsko vrhnout třeba do afriky.
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Citace - von Fenstein :
To Bitaxe: Takze mluvim o dvou obrannych liniich, ktery byly vybudovany zhruba mezi roky 1938 - 1941 (proto nektery useky byly nedokonceny). Ty linie nebyly na hranicich, protoze velmi logicky je blbost branit svoje uzemi na hranicich. ...
Citace - von Fenstein :
Tak a ted mi vysvetli, pokud meli tohle vsechno pripraveny, odzkouseny, tak proc pred utokem presunuli veskerou armadu na Polsky hranice a do Polska, kde je tak snadno Nemci zmasakrovali ???
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Citace - von Fenstein :
To pbradler: Co se tyce te linie, tak uvadim, co jsem cetl popr. videl na Discovery, kde byli dokonce uvedeny i propagacni filmy, jak Rusove vyrabi tyhle linie (celkem sranda videt mlady tak 20-tilety holky jak krumpacem a lopatou budujoou protitankovy zakopy, atd. ).
Citace - von Fenstein :
Jinak osobne jsem byl na Ukrajine a cast tyhle linie jsem videl zhruba 500 km na sever od Krymu.
Citace - von Fenstein :
Dale vime, ze nebyla vubec obsazena vojskem !!!, i kdyz Ruska defenzivni strategie pocitala samo s boji pred linii (neco na zpusob Kutuzova v roce 1812) nicmene zakladem pak byla tahle linie, kde melo dojit k hlavnimu stretu s oslabenym nepritelem.
Citace - von Fenstein :
Sam uvadis, ze polovicka mechanizovanych byla na hranicich, nicmene pokud se podivame na zbytek tak to byli divize vetsinou pouze podle nazvu. Viz. nektere divize Beloruskeho frontu v roce 1942 (kdy meli ve vyzbroji pusky s 1.svetove anebo jenom nejake savle,. popripade kozacke jednotky a jejich piky ). Na okraj tohle si myslim je hrdinstvi - bezet na Nemce jenom se savli nebo s bodakem !!
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Citace - Isek :
Stalin zřejmě nevěřil možnosti, že by Hitler napadl SSSR, ačkoliv mu asi byly předkládány důkazy o chystané operaci Barbarrosa. Proč? Hitler sám v Mein Kampfu rozebírá příčiny porážky Německa v 1. s.v., a jako hlavní označil otevření druhé fronty s Ruskem. Všeobecně se vědělo, že Německo nemá materiální, surovinové ani lidské zásoby na dlouhodobé udržení války na dvou frontách, navíc v okamžiku napadení SSSR neměli Němci pod plnou kontrolou ani celou Francii a Holandsko, nemluvě o koloniích těchto zemí. Měli tam vázané dost velké jednotky a začínali mít problémy s kaučukem a benzínem. Navíc způsob vedení války - Blitzkrieg - se dal použít v Polsku, Francii či Belgii, ale v Rusku? Průnik do týlu nepřítele, obchvaty, to nejde dělat s malou armádou na obrovském území - navíc napadnout Rusy v půli července, když se vědělo, že sjízdný terén je jen 5 měsíců - od května do října - a ani pád Moskvy by neznamenal konec války, jak se poučil Napoleon. Takže plán Barbarrosa - nikdo ho nečekal a nevěřil v jeho reálnost.
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Citace - jana :
Já si myslím, že Stalin určitě věděl o útoku. Jenom jeho pocit nepřemožitelnosti mu nedovolil si připustit, že opravdu existoval někdo, kdo by ho chtěl napadnout.
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Citace - vintar :
Po tom, jak dopadla sovětská armáda při útoku na miniaturní Finsko, mě připadá teorie, že by se SSSR chystal zaútočit na Německo nebo rovnou na celou Evropu, poněkud za přitažená za vlasy.
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Citace :
Kdyz uz jsme u nepripravenosti armady v dobe nemeckeho utoku tak proste nebyla pripravena z duvodu celkove neprepravenosti k konfliktu,tedy nikdo k valce se nepripravoval,rozkazy vydane tesne pred utokem nic nemohli zmenit,armada byla ve stavu mirneho casu
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Citace :
Mobilizace ktereou nazyvate "skryta" je normalni jev ve velkych armadach tech let v period zhorseni politicke situace.
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Citace - jirka vrba :
V tom "plánu preventivního protiúderu" se výslovně praví, že jde o protiúder proti německému soustředění na hraniích.
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Citace - Kaskad :
Finsko mimochodem uz na zacatku rijina 1939 nebylo v uplne mirnem stavu(alespon finska armada urcite)to ale o nicem nevypovida.
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Citace - Kaskad :
Michal Gelbič
To ze nevite kdo je to Suvorov je spatny,po pripade byste s nim mohli podat ruce
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Citace :
"Prikrytie 1941" muzes docist kolik na jednu divizi prvniho eselona pripadalo kilometru obrany.Tedy
PribOVO 33km.
Zap.OVO 47km.
KOVO 50km.
Od.VO 90km.
Tehdy jak jen pro OBRANu podle "polevogo ustavaRKKA"nebo vojenske prirucky od roku 1939 na jednu divizi pripadalo nanejvys 10-12 km.
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Citace - jirka vrba :
to Kaskad -
proč se šířka obrany divize počítá jen z počtu divizí I.ešelonu?
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Citace - Michal Gelbič :
Já jsem jasně řekl, že nejdříve sepíšu události do 23 června 1941, pak sepíšu shrnutí a pak můžeme diskutovat. .
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Citace :
Porovnal jsem počty divizí uváděné v tom "návrhu plánu soustředění..." se skutečným stavem, který jsem doma vyštrachal a vyšlo mi toto:
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Citace - jirka vrba :
to kaskad -
možna to vyznělo jinak, ale ja nejsem žádný "tvrdý" zastánce varianty "agrese SSSR". Takže ty "Soobraženije" jsem neuváděl jako důkaz agresivních plánů, ale výslovně jsem psal, že se v nich mluví o protiúderu proti něneckému soustředění.
Co se týká "plánu prikrytija 1941" - já nejsem zas tak dobrej v ruštině, ale neznamená to místo "plánu obrany" spíš "plán krytu státních hranic" - tj.kryt, za kterým měla probíhat mobilizace?
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Citace :
Nejak jsem nepochopil na co narazis(viz. tvuj posledni prispevek).Proste nemuzu pochopit k cemu me vedes?
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Citace - Schlange :
Nebylo by lepší než to takhle po částech rozepisovat na několik stran, dát to ve finále do nějakého souhrného článku a vydat to jako celek v redakci ???
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Citace - Michal Gelbič :
Souhlas. Jak mám založit vlastní článek? Ještě jsem to nedělal.
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Citace :
Соображения
по плану стратегического развертывания
Вооруженных сил Советского Союза
15 мая 1941 г.
Председателю Совета Народных Комиссаров.
Учитывая, что Германия в настоящее время держит свою армию отмобилизованной, с развернутыми тылами, она имеет возможность предупредить нас в развертывании и нанести внезапный удар. Чтобы предотвратить это, считаю необходимым ни в коем случае не давать инициативы действий германскому командованию, упредить противника в развертывании и атаковать германскую армию в тот момент, когда она будет находиться в стадии развертывания и не успеет еще организовать фронт и взаимодействие войск.
Первой стратегической целью действий Красной Армии поставить разгром главных сил немецкой армии, развертываемых южнее Брест-Демблин, и выход к 30-му дню севернее рубежа Остроленко, р. Нарев, Ловичь, Лодзь, Крейцбург, Опельн, Оломоуц.
Последующей стратегической целью - наступать из района Катовице в северном или северо-западном направлении, разгромить крупные силы врага центра и северного крыла германского фронта и овладеть территорией бывшей Польши и Восточной Пруссии.
Ближайшей задачей - разбить германскую армию восточнее р.Висла и на краковском направлении выйти на рубеж р.Нарев, Висла и овладеть районом Катовице, для чего:
а) главный удар силами Юго-Западного фронта нанести в направлении Краков, Катовице, отрезать Германию от ее южных союзников;
6) вспомогательный удар левым крылом Западного фронта нанести в направлении на Варшаву, Демблин с целью сковывания варшавской группировки и овладеть Варшавой, а также содействовать Юго-Западному фронту в разгроме люблинской группировки;
в) вести активную оборону против Финляндии, Восточной Пруссии, Венгрии, Румынии и быть готовыми к нанесению ударов против Румынии при благоприятной обстановке. Таким образом, Красная Армия начинает наступательные действия с фронта Чижев, Людовлено силами 152 дивизий против 100 германских, на других участках государственной границы предусматривается активная оборона... Детально группировка сил показана на прилагаемой карте. Состав и задача развертываемых на западе фронтов (карта 1 : 1 000 000).
Северный фронт.
Задача - оборона г. Ленинграда, порта Мурманск, Кировской ж. д. и совместно с БВМФ обеспечить за нами полное господство в водах Финского залива.
Северо-Западный фронт - задача на схеме.
Западный фронт.
Задачи: оборона там. Далее с переходом ЮЗФ в наступление ударом левого крыла фронта в направлении Варшавы и Седлец, Радом разбить варшавскую группировку и овладеть Варшавой во взаимодействии с ЮЭФ, разбить люблинско-радомскую группировку противника, выйти на р. Висла и подвижными частями овладеть Радомом
ЮЗФ - с ближайшими задачами:
а) концентрическим ударом армий правого крыла фронта окружить и уничтожить основную группировку восточнее р. Висла в районе Люблина;
6) одновременно ударом с фронта Сенова, Перемышль, Любавнеха разбить силы противника на краковском и сандомирскокелецком направлении и овладеть районом Краков, Катовице, Кельце, имея в виду в дальнейшем наступать из этого района в северном или северо-западном направлении для разгрома крупных сил северного крыла фронта противника и овладеть территорией бывшей Польши и Восточной Пруссии;
в) прочно оборонять государственную границу с Венгрией и Румынией и быть готовым к нанесению мощных ударов против Румынии и района Черновиц и Кишинева с ближайшей целью - разгром северного крыла румынской армии и выйти на рубеж р. Молдова, Яссы...
Военно-Исторический журнал. 1992, № 2. С. 17-19.
Здесь приводится по кн.: Хрестоматии по отечественной истории (1914 - 1945 гг) под редакцией А.Ф. Киселева, Э.М.Шагина. М. 1996
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Citace :
A otevrena mobilizace mela byt vyhlasena v dobe otevreneho politickeho natlaku Nemecka,alespon tak sovetske vedeni to predstavovalo,prece Stalin nemohl uverit prave v to ze Nemecko zautoci bez ohlaseni jakychkoliv pozadavku.
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Citace :
Ale je to jednotlivy dokument ale jen v ruzne interpretace(pro politicke vedeni strucne shrnuti,pro vojenske vedeni vcetne Stalina 15 stranek).
Citace :
Ja nepopiram ze Stalin vedel o MOZNOSTI uderu,ovsem nesouhlasim s tvrzenim ze Stalin ocekaval prekvapivy uder,tedy bez predchozich diplomaticko-politickych kroku.
Citace :
Rozmisteni k 22 cervnu se s planom "Prikrytie" neshoduji,nebyl do konce splnen.
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Citace - Kaskad :
Za druhe plan "Prikrytie" uz probihal,takze nechapu jak to ze o tom nevite...
Citace - Kaskad :
Prave problem spociva v tom ze plan Prikrytija nebyl realizovan.
Citace - Kaskad :
Tedy plan kryti nebyl realizovan z duvodu opozdenosti reakce a pochopeni ze valka se blizi.
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Citace - Kaskad :
Za druhe p.Gelbic by asi by mel vedet takovy rusky pojem jako(napisu to latinkou)-"upreždenije v razvjortyvanii".
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Citace - Michal Gelbič :
Citace - Kaskad :
Za druhe p.Gelbic by asi by mel vedet takovy rusky pojem jako(napisu to latinkou)-"upreždenije v razvjortyvanii".
A ještě jsem si všimnul této poznámky, kterou osobně nechápu s čím souvisí. Pokud je to reakce na mou poznámku (myslím z části IV.), že momentálně nevím co znamená zkratka UR - tak musím opět nesouhlasit. UR než "upreždenije v razvjortyvanii" spíše znamená "Ukreplenie rajonov"!
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Citace - Michal Gelbič :
A ještě mi to nedá a vrátím se zpět ke svému výroku: "Z tohoto referátu je zřejmé nebezpečí pro SSSR, nicméně Golikov dělá takový závěr, že je reálnější útok Německa na Anglii než na SSSR"... já myslím, že touto větou si nijak neodporuji. Naopak dle tvého uvažování, by mě mělo přesvědčit o nezřejmém (nehrozícím) nebezpečí pro SSSR převaha dvou tří divizí směrovaných proti VB... já nemám slov.
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Citace - Michal Gelbič :
Citace - Kaskad :
Za druhe p.Gelbic by asi by mel vedet takovy rusky pojem jako(napisu to latinkou)-"upreždenije v razvjortyvanii".
A ještě jsem si všimnul této poznámky, kterou osobně nechápu s čím souvisí. Pokud je to reakce na mou poznámku (myslím z části IV.), že momentálně nevím co znamená zkratka UR - tak musím opět nesouhlasit. UR než "upreždenije v razvjortyvanii" spíše znamená "Ukreplenie rajonov"!
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Citace :
Spusteni planu "Prikrytie" je zacatek skryte mobilizace,ukonceni planu "Prikrytie" je zacatek a prubeh vseobecne mobilizace.
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Citace - jirka vrba :
to kaskad-Citace :
Spusteni planu "Prikrytie" je zacatek skryte mobilizace,ukonceni planu "Prikrytie" je zacatek a prubeh vseobecne mobilizace.
Ta skryta mobilizace je BUS(bojevye učebnye sbory) ?
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Citace - Kaskad :
michal gelbic
Ted se budu venovat perlam vasich prispevku.
Admiral Kanaris sovetsky spion a to jeste od roku 1940-41?To teda odkud jste to vzali,z vypovedi pro Gestapo?Budovani prumysla na Urale a Stredni Asie svedci tomu ze Stalin ustup RA predpokladal?A kam,do Uralu a Volhy?Tedy je jasny ze 30-35% sovetskeho vojenskeho prumyslu te doby bylo v Leningradu a okoli,proto asi bylo logicky presouvat z tak nebezpecne blizky k hranicim nekam jinam,ale ze by z toho delat takove zavery?Mobilizacni plan roku 1941 se nelisil ani od mobilizacnich planu z predchozich let(viz.MobPlan 22 z roku 1939)ani od jinych velkych statu a casto i malych statu.Cose tyce toho ze soveti,pardon Stalin,pocitali v prvnim roce se ztratama 3,8 mil.lidi,tak to jste vzal odkud???Tak je to jen reakci(neuplna) na prvni cast tzv.Stalinova KLAMu
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Citace - RoBoT :
nechtěl dát Hitlerovi záminku k útoku. Pořád doufal, že ho ten Hitler přes všechny ty zprávy nenapadne. Přece jen je těžké si připustit, že se vám rozsypala celá koncepce zahr. politiky.
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Citace :
Budeme tedy uvažovat, že - bez ohledu na vytváření útočné sestavy - sovětská strana chtěla zůstat v obraně až do léta 1942.
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Citace :
V druhé polovině července či počátkem srpna 1941 by tak Sověti na Ukrajině měli pouze tři možnosti:
1) zahájit přesun zpět, tedy z oblastí při Dněpru vrátit vojska na Kubáň a do Zabajkalska, z pohraničí vrátit jednak k Dněpru, jednak do středního Ruska (hezký výlet několika stovek tisíc vojáků s veškerou technikou a základními dotacemi potravin, střeliva apohonných hmot, jenž na pět měsíců absolutně vytížil sovětské železnice);
2) ponechat všechna vojska na místě a riskovat rozsáhlé epidemie, následný rozpad morálky a faktické rozložení sil, tedy něco, co lze označit jako syndrom Maginotovy linie 1939 (aspoň by měla vojska NKVD něco na práci, nahánět, chytat a střílet na místě stovky či tisíce ozbrojených marodérů);
3) zahájit postup na západ.
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Citace :
Němci totiž až do června 1941 soustřeďováním svých sil pouze reagovali na sovětskou převahu, která byla v jistých okamžicích několikanásobná. Tuto skutečnost lze vcelku snadno dokázat......Takže Stalin v tomto případě nereagoval na německé soustřeďování, ale spíše Hitler reagoval na soustřeďování sovětské.
Citace :
Je zapotřebí rozlišit, kdy se vytvářejí operační studie proti komukoli, a kdy dochází k rozhodnutí o přípravě k válce. V daném případě je oním mezníkem Hitlerův podpis na směrnici č. 21 (Fall Barbarossa). Všechno, co se tvrdí o německých přípravách na válku proti SSSR je komunistická propaganda, ať se Vám to líbí nebo nelíbí.
Citace :
Německý operační plán z prosince (směrnice č. 21) známe.
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Citace :
Nedělejme si iluze. Téměř 60 let nedělají Sověti a po nich Rusové nic jiného, že různým způsobem mystifikují, aby zakryli realitu - skutečnost, že chtěli v červenci 1941 zaútočit na Evropu. Stejně jak se o to snažili v létě 1920, stejně, jak se o to chtěli pokusit v šedesátých letech.
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Citace :
Možná by stálo za to, abychom si zvykli, že první frontou (nejdůležitějším válčištěm), a to z geopoliticko-strategického hlediska byla západní Evropa, jelikož ta primárně propojovala válku na kontinentu s válkou globální.
Vím, že tento můj názor vyvolá projevy nevole i vole, ale Cimrmanovými slovy "můžeme s tím nesouhlasit, ale to je to jediné, co se proti tomu dá dělat".
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Citace - jirka vrba :
Podle J.(da)C. proti tomu můžu ještě protestovat
A to nyní také činím - obzvláště významným bylo toto bojiště v letech 1941-1943...myslím, že to propojování bylo tím jediným co se tam dělo.
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Citace - Viktor :
Keď dvaja robia to isté (Hitler a Stalin), keď to čo robia má rovnakých charakter a rovnako to vyzerá (a rovnako to smrdí ), tak je to naozaj také isté a nie navzájom odlišné!
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Citace :
Zároveň bych se chtěl zeptat, kde byly ty tanky přes zimu 1940/1941, když po zimě 1941/1942 by určitě skončily ve šrotu
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